From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2d.google.com (mail-oa1-x2d.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 826093B2A4 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2d.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c6f6f75a81so1134421fac.2 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comsoc-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1742319896; x=1742924696; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mEt7FlBt0p75Gsi6awn7LL+FiK/gqIoN3qBCtS8NDDA=; b=jBEtWSbQ7j1eWwqpzcb++m3Mb8fXeP8qMVcsT2hkzmWWqYSLn4yi6WaGSpqV6uDcpd CzZoJutOx1hW8RwflqSvKToVF27xFea4I5J8/CvfIi3nfJoiTS1V2OsrUUm0lOEWoZXl m4RmJYQzOmzlBrJj7Up8To56ckarLxvxyPb5o0YwzJP7p6XKwTQqZAjyAPG/IHXlSZ7Q byrxu1FCtQh0eSUrLWKGPO3rhNSFBBYiMks/BRlZgai+B1QIuTeSBvrV2ATCPO8/quvv sQZaA1Mu0w6MbCIQeN6DigxV5YsZzGNEroEimnWJfkHv0omDYq2iOmgNZc/pSuUqRSbq fU4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1742319896; x=1742924696; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=mEt7FlBt0p75Gsi6awn7LL+FiK/gqIoN3qBCtS8NDDA=; b=h/eZHOC0VUaXL5D/jO5Lj2Zg7E+lUQ+TYEnRUTOGEoLgokG1aSTC+6XaaA61191dvs RinrbLtIUz/njdeERKfpjg2BHugCneRxEkdFKAqFI5j5j+hPjuqe0Dq7NzbTQGRPRHTc SpWOP0tO3/wj5+HIojwgDQ0QojphN4eNw4N3W0uTZn/rr85bT5ZKvrGivnGiDBjTCrhX 8B2EmTtnvSXogWg0XExRufPVHssDDnGrGQPu3FSXTY8/ULRXkRfMQNmq2iH8610mtQao 8STXLlMovXF6PyLnd+VImEe8IqeMeQvFkAoiC17aAE9ljJNELY5XSHg1o9x7zMOytTaL dkWw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWYAELUlYR85QAsh+jFeiWLeEu89Zs+/G1M0c9+HcCIskyknfdiBzAN+CYnYEx2OGPCh/eo4SsNvQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxeoUHSB+qSeWFosIMsq/v+zT2IfazWCrlp7bNpcbDcsYGhdLs9 4UDiTI2dPvSyYcnJSQRsmx+oKO6Mu5Y7tbaoOSkWiEbQzSKDOiKghXyzHZFyplRDYqoasRP3s0G fQXj9rHhgbhZA04Xp/O9+LkzA3xXArdkZAkjd X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncslLADzP7gfrGDafXb9QkobfdjjM6FSfnCHW6cD8zsF7rKwL8T/W/G7uYBJQny l7/+PftYV4V5q9w6nZYAemUJR1nf6Qie5kT6NTmBsXwOu2rtD+nQo5UcA17YDvdiJnPWOhbQ5gX V/WPgMrhoPsWMFyloZ4FZDFprh0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGtuWLDTWNFL9gD6jadzMXCuZuL7upOw6ievS3zmzxBovFabCGOnyVUr8yJW8nfqTh9VIPdx292wZwOBgwZLLg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:2051:b0:2c2:4eb0:41f3 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c690ec422emr8981694fac.3.1742319894766; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6nn799r0-q896-4osn-23no-733oorno0p55@ynat.uz> <1oqn4685-8qsp-923n-9p4s-487rn4p65o77@ynat.uz> <822574.1742275322@dyas> <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> In-Reply-To: From: Craig Polk X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JqE2yzwRgOX9M_yY0vh4Yblk-regfsQXyPFiwL9Ey20fsIHyYWgQAKHAjw Message-ID: To: Steve Stroh Cc: Mike Puchol , Starlink , 5grm-satellite@ieee.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069d1f50630a17686" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 06:48:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:44:56 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:44:37 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:44:56 -0000 --00000000000069d1f50630a17686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mike for the details. Not sure if you would consider writing your one view as one of the INGR articles? I know that can be tough since Nokia never wanted us writing editorials about any of our things. Or if you are able to get permission or help us get someone that would like to be on an IEEE Future Networks / INGR podcast, that would be great to talk about this. But if any one in the WG would like to write an INGR topic article about this, which needs to be reviewed by the WG co-chairs, please let us know. Thanks Best regards, Craig *----* *Craig Polk, MSEE, MBA* Senior Program Manager Future Networks Tech Community | futurenetworks.ieee.org 3 Park Avenue, 17th Floor, New York, NY 10016 Office: +1 212-705-8926 <+1+212-705-8926> | Mobile: +1 908-255-6568 <+1+908-255-6568> Email: c.polk@comsoc.org Future Networks World Forum | https://fnwf.ieee.org/ Connecting the Unconnected | https://ctu.ieee.org/ Upcoming Vacations/Holidays/Events: 4-6 April 2025 - IEEE R1/R2 StuCon 2025: https://attend.ieee.org/stucon-2025/ 6-12 April 2025 - IEEE Education Week: https://educationweek.ieee.org= / 24 April 2025 - IEEE Kids Day 15-19 May 2025 - personal time =E1=90=A7 On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 12:03=E2=80=AFPM Steve Stroh wrote: > Mike: > > Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the previous > FSO vendors until I saw the range number. That=E2=80=99s a huge advantage= to be > able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues. > > Thanks for the great writeup! > > Steve Stroh > > Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) > Editor > Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org > Radios are Computers - With Antennas! > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 Mike Puchol via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doubts & questions = where I >> can! >> >> With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal >> musings, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR = or marcomms. >> >> IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a = comment that was >> taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in >> terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the n= ew >> =E2=80=9CFacebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently playing in the mid= dle mile, it is >> point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the >> help of the optical phased array (the =E2=80=9CTaara chip=E2=80=9D that = was announced at >> MWC). >> >> In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become = a fully >> fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to >> individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires= . >> Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we he= lp >> in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congeste= d >> RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No. >> >> As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, >> Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is= 20 >> km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed = a >> link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 k= m >> with zero margin. >> >> How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing >> mirror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for stru= ctural >> movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that ca= n >> adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and = to some >> extent, scintillation. >> >> The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and >> compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing >> mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and >> steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front >> errors, something we can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge. >> >> Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of >> dB/km at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, = we >> can be deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are >> capacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link >> with another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gai= n >> 20 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time. >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote: >> >> >> David Lang via Starlink wrote: >> >> Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed >> that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no >> satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor >> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and >> provide service everywhere. >> >> >> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though) >> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword) >> >> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ag= o. >> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new >> rights >> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be >> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new >> entrants. >> >> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me. >> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's >> north. >> >> Just not between pacific islands. >> >> -- >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the 5GRM-SATELLITE list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3D5GRM-SATELLITE&A=3D1 > --00000000000069d1f50630a17686 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Mike for the details. Not sure if you would co= nsider writing your one view as one of the INGR articles? I know that can b= e tough since Nokia never wanted us writing editorials about any of our thi= ngs. Or if you are able to get permission or help us get someone that would= like to be on an IEEE Future Networks / INGR podcast, that=C2=A0would be g= reat to talk about this.=C2=A0

But if any one in t= he WG would like to write an INGR topic article about this, which needs to = be reviewed by the WG co-chairs, please let us know. Thanks

= Best regards,=C2=A0
<= font color=3D"#000000">Craig
----
Craig Polk, M= SEE, MBA
Senior Program Manage= r
Future Networks Tech Community |= =C2=A0future= networks.ieee.org=C2=A0
<= font color=3D"#351c75" face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">3 Park Avenue, 17th Floo= r,=C2=A0New=C2= =A0York, NY 10016=C2=A0=C2=A0
Office:=C2=A0+1 212-705-8926=C2=A0=C2=A0= | Mobile:=C2=A0+1 908-255-6568=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"color:rgb(53,28,117);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Future Ne= tworks World Forum |=C2=A0https://fnwf.ieee.org/
<= /div>
Connecting the Unconnected |=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://ctu.ieee.org/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_= blank">https://ctu.ieee.org/=C2=A0

Upcoming Vacations/Holidays/Events:
<= div>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A04-6=C2=A0April=C2=A02025 - IEEE R= 1/R2 StuCon 2025:=C2=A0https://attend.ieee.or= g/stucon-2025/
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06-12 April=C2=A02025 - IEEE Educa= tion Week:=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://educationweek.ieee.org/" target=3D"_blank">https://educat= ionweek.ieee.org/
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A024=C2=A0April=C2=A02025 - IEEE= Kids Day
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015-19 May 2025 = - personal time

3D""= =E1=90=A7

=
On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 12:03=E2=80= =AFPM Steve Stroh <steve.stroh@= gmail.com> wrote:
Mike:

Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the = previous FSO vendors until I saw the range number. That=E2=80=99s a huge ad= vantage to be able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues.=C2= =A0

Thanks for the great= writeup!

Steve Stroh
Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)Editor
Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org
Radios are = Computers - With Antennas!


On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferb= loat.net> wrote:
As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doub= ts & questions where I can!=C2=A0

With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal musin= gs, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR or marco= mms.

IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a com= ment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think= of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becomin= g the new =E2=80=9CFacebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently playing in = the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into= last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the =E2=80=9CTaara ch= ip=E2=80=9D that was announced at MWC).

In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become a f= ully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to i= ndividual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires. Ca= n we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help in= urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested RF = and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.

As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Earth-= based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 km as= we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a link a= t 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km with ze= ro margin.

How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing mir= ror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for structural= movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can = adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to = some extent, scintillation.

The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and compre= ss some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror and= making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering the las= er beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, something we = can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge.

Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/km = at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can be= deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity u= pgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with another= microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20 Gbps for 9= 5-99.9% of the time.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael R= ichardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:

David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Since it kept talking about being a replacement f= or Starlink, I assumed
that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor<= br> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
provide service everywhere.

(It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
(or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)

But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.<= br> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new righ= ts
of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new entrants.

So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's no= rth.

Just not between pacific islands.

--
] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelm= an.ca/ | ruby on rails [


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https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

To unsubscribe from the 5GRM-SATELLITE list, click the following link: = https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3D5GR= M-SATELLITE&A=3D1

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