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Birrane" , Starlink BufferBloat List , "Juan A. Fraire" , Erik Kline , Joerg Ott Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008476d90630191815" Subject: Re: [Starlink] IETF side meeting on satellite and deep space networks (Tue Mar 18) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 23:03:24 -0000 --0000000000008476d90630191815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, I'm currently a PhD student at UCLA, and our current research interest is implementing and evaluating the routing idea from RFC 9717 (A Routing Architecture for Satellite Networks) from the ns-3 OSPF routing module , which is still in its early stage, and will be integrated with a simulated satellite mobility model, including handovers and terrestrial routing, like Hypatia . We are also interested in how content-centric networks would work in a LEO satellite network environment. It could be populated entirely by graduate students doing interesting tests > in simulated environment using modified off-the-shelf (i.e. already RFC) > routing protocols. > And then writing papers, with the modifications written up as I-Ds. The charter interested me, and I would be happy to join the side meeting (remotely)! Thank you. On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 7:09=E2=80=AFAM Nishanth Sastry via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hi Nitinder, Dave, > > Yes, attracting major players is important, and hopefully will happen > organically over time. We are trying our best to include them, and might > see some participation already in Bangkok. > > Both integration with terrestrial infrastructure as well as content > delivery (which Ulrich also raised) are on our radar already. Thanks for > bringing up; gives us a clear evidence of community interest! > > Best Wishes > nishanth > > On 7 Mar 2025, at 10:28, mohan@in.tum.de wrote: > > > Thanks Nishanth and others for taking a lead on this! > > > >> Without attracting the major players (starlink, nasa, oneweb, etc, > > etc) to an effort here, I don't know what we could do > > to move forward in these areas. > > > > This is not required for an RG but of course it is desired. I believe > the attraction pull to involve major players can also happen slowly as RG > starts discussing topics relevant to these players. We already see this i= n > MAPRG which receives significant contributions from industry players. To > accelerate this, it may be beneficial to define what the intended > purpose/vision of this RG will be long-term (especially if it intends to > stay as an RG). > > > > On another note, I didn=E2=80=99t spot =E2=80=9Cinteractions/integratio= n of existing > terrestrial Internet infrastructure with NTN=E2=80=9D hinted in the RG de= scription. > This pretty much covers most interest from existing LEO ISPs and also > questions such as =E2=80=9Ccontent delivery from space=E2=80=9D. Is this = an intentional > oversight? > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Nitinder Mohan > > TU Delft > > www.nitindermohan.com > > > > > > From: Starlink on behalf of > Dave Taht via Starlink > > Date: Friday, 7 March 2025 at 00:11 > > To: Nishanth Sastry > > Cc: Rick Taylor , Kevin Shortt < > kevin.shortt@airbus.com>, Edward J. Birrane , > Starlink BufferBloat List , Erik Kline < > ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Juan A. Fraire , Joerg Ott < > ott@in.tum.de> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] IETF side meeting on satellite and deep space > networks (Tue Mar 18) > > Without attracting the major players (starlink, nasa, oneweb, etc, > > etc) to an effort here, I don't know what we could do > > to move forward in these areas. > > > > NASA had published a comms architecture for the earth-moon corredor > > a.few years back that was an awesome mess of competing technologies, > > hardly an architecture at all. (I can go find it) > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:37=E2=80=AFPM Nishanth Sastry > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Michael > >> > >> Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ? > >> > >> IMHO most of the LEO stuff is quite far from DTNRG and needs its own > home; although strong overlaps exist between some of the bundle protocol > ideas and DTN. (There was also Kevin Fall=E2=80=99s Interplanetary Intern= et and > IPNSIG). > >> > >> It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routing > flaps. Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random. > >> > >> Totally agree! > >> > >> Best Wishes > >> nishanth > >> > >> On 6 Mar 2025, at 18:48, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Nishanth Sastry via Starlink wrote: > >>> Great question. One clear and easy answer is that this is meant to be > >>> an IRTF group rather than an IETF group, so with more of a focus on > >>> identifying long-term research issues (that are of interest to the IE= TF > >>> community) rather than on forming standards. We think there is a need > >>> for an IRTF-lens to draw clear boundaries, identify overlaps, and > >>> connect interfaces across architectures (e.g., Bundle Protocol/IP), > >>> different variants the space domain (LEO/DeepSpace), phenomena > >>> (Delay/Disruptions down to relativistic effects), and entities (IETF, > >>> CCSDS, IOAG, but also the private players in the space, like > >>> Starlink). > >> > >> Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ? > >> > >>> That said, the meeting is really to figure out what the community > >>> thinks there is a need for, and indeed, whether there is a need for > >>> something like this. Why not come to the meeting (virtually or in > >>> person) to provide your views and inputs on things we could/should do= ? > >>> Of course, appreciate that the Bangkok timezone may not work out for > >>> some, but if we manage to get this going, we are hoping to have regul= ar > >>> activities in other IETF meetings which will be in other time zones. > >> > >> It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routing > flaps. > >> Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random. > >> > >> There is some work in RPL (RFC6550) as related to 6TISCH (TSCH) where > >> channels come and go already, but that is multiple times/second vs > multiple > >> times/hour. > >> > >> -- > >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ > >> > >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ > > > > > > > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQoS > > "A perfect storm" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCQX1PmRULU0 > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --0000000000008476d90630191815 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone,

I'm current= ly a PhD student at UCLA, and our current research interest is implementing= and evaluating the routing idea from RFC 9717 (A Routing Architecture for Satellite Network= s) from the ns-3 OSPF ro= uting module, which is still in its early stage, and will be integrated= with a simulated satellite mobility model, including handovers and terrest= rial routing,=C2=A0like Hypati= a. We are also interested in how=C2=A0content-centric networks would wo= rk in a LEO satellite network environment.

It could be populated entirely by gra= duate students doing interesting tests
in simulated environment using mo= dified off-the-shelf (i.e. already RFC)
routing protocols.
And then w= riting papers, with the modifications written up as I-Ds.
= =C2=A0
The charter interested me, and I would be happy to join th= e side meeting (remotely)!

Thank you.


On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 7:09=E2= =80=AFAM Nishanth Sastry via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hi Nitinder, Dave,

Yes, attracting major players is important, and hopefully will happen organ= ically over time. We are trying our best to include them, and might see som= e participation already in Bangkok.

Both integration with terrestrial infrastructure as well as content deliver= y (which Ulrich also raised) are on our radar already. Thanks for bringing = up; gives us a clear evidence of community interest!

Best Wishes
nishanth

On 7 Mar 2025, at 10:28, mohan@in.tum.de wrote:

> Thanks Nishanth and others for taking a lead on this!
>
>> Without attracting the major players (starlink, nasa, oneweb, etc,=
> etc) to an effort here, I don't know what we could do
> to move forward in these areas.
>
> This is not required for an RG but of course it is desired. I believe = the attraction pull to involve major players can also happen slowly as RG s= tarts discussing topics relevant to these players. We already see this in M= APRG which receives significant contributions from industry players. To acc= elerate this, it may be beneficial to define what the intended purpose/visi= on of this RG will be long-term (especially if it intends to stay as an RG)= .
>
> On another note, I didn=E2=80=99t spot =E2=80=9Cinteractions/integrati= on of existing terrestrial Internet infrastructure with NTN=E2=80=9D hinted= in the RG description. This pretty much covers most interest from existing= LEO ISPs and also questions such as =E2=80=9Ccontent delivery from space= =E2=80=9D. Is this an intentional oversight?
>
> Thanks and Regards,
>
> Nitinder Mohan
> TU Delft
> www.nitindermohan.com<http://www.nitindermohan.com/&= gt;
>
>
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on = behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Date: Friday, 7 March 2025 at 00:11
> To: Nishanth Sastry <n.sastry@surrey.ac.uk>
> Cc: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Kevin Shortt <= kevin.shortt@a= irbus.com>, Edward J. Birrane <Edward.Birrane@jhuapl.edu>, Starlink Bu= fferBloat List <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, = Juan A. Fraire <juanfraire@gmail.com>, Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] IETF side meeting on satellite and deep space = networks (Tue Mar 18)
> Without attracting the major players (starlink, nasa, oneweb, etc,
> etc) to an effort here, I don't know what we could do
> to move forward in these areas.
>
> NASA had published a comms architecture for the earth-moon corredor > a.few years back that was an awesome mess of competing technologies, > hardly an architecture at all. (I can go find it)
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:37=E2=80=AFPM Nishanth Sastry <n.sastry@surrey.ac.uk&g= t; wrote:
>>
>> Hi Michael
>>
>> Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ?
>>
>> IMHO most of the LEO stuff is quite far from DTNRG and needs its o= wn home; although strong overlaps exist between some of the bundle protocol= ideas and DTN. (There was also Kevin Fall=E2=80=99s Interplanetary Interne= t and IPNSIG).
>>
>> It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routin= g flaps. Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random.
>>
>> Totally agree!
>>
>> Best Wishes
>> nishanth
>>
>> On 6 Mar 2025, at 18:48, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> Nishanth Sastry via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> w= rote:
>>> Great question. One clear and easy answer is that this is mean= t to be
>>> an IRTF group rather than an IETF group, so with more of a foc= us on
>>> identifying long-term research issues (that are of interest to= the IETF
>>> community) rather than on forming standards. We think there is= a need
>>> for an IRTF-lens to draw clear boundaries, identify overlaps, = and
>>> connect interfaces across architectures (e.g., Bundle Protocol= /IP),
>>> different variants the space domain (LEO/DeepSpace), phenomena=
>>> (Delay/Disruptions down to relativistic effects), and entities= (IETF,
>>> CCSDS, IOAG, but also the private players in the space, like >>> Starlink).
>>
>> Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ?
>>
>>> That said, the meeting is really to figure out what the commun= ity
>>> thinks there is a need for, and indeed, whether there is a nee= d for
>>> something like this. Why not come to the meeting (virtually or= in
>>> person) to provide your views and inputs on things we could/sh= ould do?
>>> Of course, appreciate that the Bangkok timezone may not work o= ut for
>>> some, but if we manage to get this going, we are hoping to hav= e regular
>>> activities in other IETF meetings which will be in other time = zones.
>>
>> It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routin= g flaps.
>> Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random.
>>
>> There is some work in RPL (RFC6550) as related to 6TISCH (TSCH) wh= ere
>> channels come and go already, but that is multiple times/second vs= multiple
>> times/hour.
>>
>> --
>> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ >>
>> ] mcr@sandel= man.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [
>
>
>
> --
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQoS
> "A perfect storm" - https://www.youtube.= com/watch?v=3DCQX1PmRULU0
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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