From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s31663417 header.b=rceFqMOK; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B6C19A0156; Wed, 04 Nov 2026 20:09:40 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1793819379; x=1794424179; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=C2GwRWEbKaxzgjwKfEqOlhO5stSBgklhY01j7G/jeeU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=rceFqMOK+Zn1XwoPSv/4Fxr9LhQn2ic0GW7WPn/tqlZ04Oa7m26FwSX4ZRx3pNLL H+DCfrIJ6oBbQylCwP3lF6fFT1+0xV3Asf6CaJKXY7Pz3GJpY1odeKmFdGuJynbhr 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9v0/bkgSgYSAGI/GJqAHcA4ANQomplITeZkq+ZoYRZHqBKbERIFOzQK8lHjYceFcmI1tndgVI zTQeILJsRUzAfq0UnTDLtpe9c/UAA== Message-ID-Hash: G2UH6YDI4TKT5IM6LUZIMWB5HYJXD4DO X-Message-ID-Hash: G2UH6YDI4TKT5IM6LUZIMWB5HYJXD4DO X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: [NNagain] [Bloat] The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own country by taxing Gigabits (Dr. Peering) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Sascha, > On Nov 4, 2026, at 19:33, Sascha Meinrath wrote: >=20 > On 11/4/26 12:03 PM, Sebastian Moeller wrote:> Hi Sascha, >> On November 4, 2026 5:20:01 PM GMT+01:00, Sascha Meinrath = wrote: >>> Hi Sebastian, >>>=20 >>> My point is that if I VPNed to a point outside France, then a French = ISP would have no way to know that I've accessed the type of media that = should be taxed. >> A misunderstanding, the amendment prposes to tax every single bit = independent of the source... it makes zero exemptions, not for FOSS, not = for non commercially ial entities. Sure the motivation is to tax big = tech primarily, but the current (half-baked) legal implementation is not = differentiating... >>> In essence, VPNs (and proxy services) would create extraordinary = problems for even instrumenting the proposed taxing regime. >> How? Like with a CDN the tax would hit the vpn provider... the ASN of = the source IP.... >=20 > A VPN provider (at least any that I would recommend using) would not = know the content being VPNed. Indeed, and nor should he... the amendment is quite explicit what is = supposed to be measured and taxed... > In essence, someone in France could VPN to a different country; = neither the ISP or the VPN provider would know the specific content = being accessed Indeed, and the law explicitly states that just received bytes for the = ISPs customers are to be counted, per ASN and the bill is supposed to be = sent to that ASN, independent of whether that ASN is the true source or = what kind of data we are talking about... actually the law states that = neither destination (the specific enduser) nor content are to be looked = at/reported/aggregated. > (Note: while some VPN's do track their users, none of the privacy = protecting ones would do so); meanwhile, the media company -- even = assuming some sort of extra-territorial leverage of French law outside = of France -- may have no idea that the end destination of the media in = question is within France. Yes, but the party on the hook in this scenario is the VPN provider = anyway. The ASN owning the source IP address of the packets an ISP = receives, that is what is the aggregation key... not the true source of = the packets (whatever that may be). >=20 > Long story short, neither the VPN provider, the French ISP, nor the = media company would necessarily know that a specific piece of media was = destined for consumption within France. If the VPN provider would not know or would not be able to find out that = one of the endpoints use an IP address out of a french ISP's allotment, = tough luck, that would be a sign of incompetent traffic monitoring, no?=20= > This is, of course, exactly the conundrum facing authoritarian and = censorial regimes around the globe -- Look, I am no friend of authoritarian and censorial regimes, but this = law is neither... it is a ham fisted approach at solving something that = is a real issue, on-line business eating bricks-and-mortar's shops lunch = and big tech exfiltrating loads of revenue with minimal taxation. Now, = you might not consider these issues important, but at least to me they = are neither authoritarian or censorial. I also see no slippery slope = here into mass survailance... > in this case, one is dodging tax surveillance, but the technical = underpinnings are very much the same. >=20 > All in all, a dumb & doomed (proposed) law. Yes, but I feel that you have not actually read the full amendment (I = only read translations as my french is simply to bad for the original). = As there is no VPN loophole in the plan (but no argument, the plan is = still dumb & doomed). Regards Sebastian >=20 > --Sascha >=20 >>>=20 >>> --Sascha >>>=20 >>> On 11/4/26 10:40 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>>> Hi Sascha, >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 15:30, Sascha Meinrath = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I can't wait until the French Parliament learns about VPNs... It = would be absolutely *wonderful* if all the ISPs passed along the tax to = their customers... and then taught all their customers that VPNed = traffic would, for obvious reasons, be exempted. >>>>=20 >>>> Not how this is supposed to work: the ISP aggregates its = end-customer bound traffic volume by ASN and reports these aggregates = quarterly, the tax office sends the ASNs the tax bill. VPN does not = really matter, except now it is the VPN provider that is on the hook for = the money. The amendment does not address VPNs but for CDNs that are in = a similar picckle the idea is that CDN operators either pass on the cost = or "eat" it themselves (both half-baked ideas). The only oddity VPNs add = is that they typically receive no money from the actual content = providers, but the end users. >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I find proposals like this to be absolutely idiotic -- and, they = are yet another step in the global data obfuscation arms race. >>>>=20 >>>> Oh, that proposal is pretty half-baked, no arggument there, but I = think we differ in which of its half-baked-ness we consider worst ;) >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> #encrypteverything >>>>=20 >>>> Well, if you look what this is supposed to operate on encryption is = not really an option, as this operates on source and destination IP = addresses, that are somewhat prickly to encrypt if you want packets = delivered... >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --Sascha >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 11/2/26 6:23 AM, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: >>>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>>>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 08:44, Michael Welzl = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The tax is 5 cents per Gigabyte. This is insane. >>>>>> Back of the envelop calculations for video streaming (assuming = this to be the one category driving most of the sustained capacity = usage): >>>>>> common use seems to be HD streaming (say on average at 5 Mbps), = with say 2 hours per day, 7 days per week: >>>>>> (5 * 1000^2) * (60 * 60 * 2 * 30) / (8 * 1000^3) =3D 135 GB >>>>>> -> 135 * 0.055 =3D 7.425 Euro/month >>>>>> typical cost for midrange (ad-free) video streaming in france: = 8-15 Euro >>>>>> depending on the reference contract tier, the tax almost as large = as the total revenue, no way this could be priced-in without significant = price increases. >>>>>> The proposed tax indeed seems quite steep, however it is capped = at 15% of revenue in france or 2% of world-wide revenue >>>>>> So that would get this more in like with a 15% tax... on revenue, = still nothing to sneeze at, but a far cry from the numbers one gets when = simply multiplying... >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Sebastian >>>>>> P.S.: My take this is half-baked and will not make it through the = further legislative process in that form. >>>>>>> It goes against how we agree to use the Internet. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> English version: >>>>>>> "France has recently approved a highly controversial "Internet = Traffic >>>>>>> Tax" (or Gigabyte Tax) as part of the 2027 budget bill = amendments. The >>>>>>> new levy targets digital content providers based on the volume = of data >>>>>>> they transmit to French internet users, which is monitored by = network >>>>>>> operators and Internet Service Providers (ISPs) heavily = utilizing >>>>>>> Internet Exchange Points like France-IX." >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Google AI summary: >>>>>>> "Key Metrics & Tax Rates >>>>>>> =E2=80=A2 =E2=82=AC0.055 per gigabyte charged to content = providers. >>>>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 15% of a provider's French revenue. >>>>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 2% of a provider's global revenue. >>>>>>> =E2=80=A2 Measured directly by French network operators and = ISPs." >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 2026-10-31 13:56, Frantisek Borsik wrote: >>>>>>>> Crossposting, because this garbage idea might "inspire" more = countries >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> have a horrible impact also on bufferbloat everywhere. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> *Original post by Dr. Peering:* >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> *"The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their = own >>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>> by taxing Gigabits. Here=E2=80=99s Octave Klaba's excellent = analysis [in >>>>>>>> French, >>>>>>>> link below] showing just how insane the finance bill actually = is. The >>>>>>>> IXP >>>>>>>> taxation amount is, just for starters, ridiculous!"* >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> https://x.com/drpeering/status/2116468659392807 >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> *Octave's post:* >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = https://fr.linkedin.com/posts/octave-klaba-3a0b3632_jai-lu-lamendement-i-1= 358-au-plf-2027-activity-7522219045576888320-uqkw >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> *Copy+paste:* >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> J'ai lu l'amendement I-1358 au PLF 2027, adopt=C3=A9 ce = vendredi =C3=A0 >>>>>>>> l'Assembl=C3=A9e : >>>>>>>> une taxe de 0,055 =E2=82=AC par Go envoy=C3=A9 vers les = abonn=C3=A9s des FAI fran=C3=A7ais. Le >>>>>>>> chiffre est abstrait, alors comparons-le. Corrigez-moi si vous = voyez >>>>>>>> des >>>>>>>> erreurs. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Deux comparaisons et un cas concret : >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 1. Le transit et le peering. Un port 100 Gbps co=C3=BBte = environ 6 300 =E2=82=AC par >>>>>>>> mois chez un fournisseur de transit mondial. En interconnexion = directe >>>>>>>> avec >>>>>>>> un FAI europ=C3=A9en, compter 3 =C3=A0 5 fois plus, soit 20 =C3=A0= 30 k=E2=82=AC par mois. Sur >>>>>>>> ce >>>>>>>> port (a), la taxe atteint 1,02 M=E2=82=AC par mois, soit = environ 3400 % =C3=A0 16300 >>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>> du prix d'une interconnexion vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais. On = change donc >>>>>>>> profond=C3=A9ment le mod=C3=A8le =C3=A9conomique de la bande = passante en France. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 2. Les hyperscalers sont critiqu=C3=A9s pour le prix de leur = trafic sortant, >>>>>>>> qui >>>>>>>> va d'environ 0,08=E2=82=AC =C3=A0 0,045=E2=82=AC par Go selon = le volume. La taxe, 0,055 =E2=82=AC >>>>>>>> par >>>>>>>> Go, repr=C3=A9sente 68 % =C3=A0 123 % de ce prix. On parle donc = de doubler, pour >>>>>>>> le >>>>>>>> trafic vers la France, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 jug=C3=A9 trop = =C3=A9lev=C3=A9 ! >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 3. Le cas d'OVHcloud. Nous envoyons de l'ordre de 500 Gbps au = 95e >>>>>>>> percentile vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais, soit environ 324 Gbps en = moyenne. Sur >>>>>>>> un >>>>>>>> an, la taxe brute atteindrait 70 M=E2=82=AC. Le texte la = plafonne =C3=A0 15 % du CA >>>>>>>> r=C3=A9alis=C3=A9 en France ou =C3=A0 2 % du CA mondial, soit = entre environ 23 et 70 >>>>>>>> M=E2=82=AC >>>>>>>> par an que nous devrions collecter pour l'=C3=89tat, et donc = r=C3=A9percuter sur >>>>>>>> nos >>>>>>>> clients. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Conclusions : >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 1. Une taxe porte en g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral sur une petite fraction = de son assiette. >>>>>>>> Celle-ci vaut plus de 3000 % du co=C3=BBt du transit, et = environ 100 % du >>>>>>>> prix >>>>>>>> public des hyperscalers. Rappelez-vous la loi SREN, vot=C3=A9e = pour >>>>>>>> supprimer >>>>>>>> les frais de transfert qui emp=C3=AAchaient les clients de = quitter un >>>>>>>> fournisseur cloud. Ici, on parle de doubler le prix du trafic = sortant >>>>>>>> vers >>>>>>>> les internautes fran=C3=A7ais, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 tr=C3=A8s = probl=C3=A9matique. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 2. Le garde-fou, un plafond calcul=C3=A9 sur le chiffre = d'affaires, est >>>>>>>> incoh=C3=A9rent. Ce chiffre d'affaires couvre des serveurs, du = stockage, des >>>>>>>> datacenters et des =C3=A9quipes sans rapport avec la bande = passante. C'est >>>>>>>> comme >>>>>>>> cr=C3=A9er une taxe calcul=C3=A9e sur la consommation = =C3=A9lectrique des usines >>>>>>>> automobiles en France, plafonn=C3=A9e =C3=A0 15 % du chiffre = d'affaires des >>>>>>>> constructeurs. Quel rapport entre les deux ? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 3. Une taxe nationale de ce type frappe =C3=A0 coup s=C3=BBr = les entreprises >>>>>>>> =C3=A9tablies >>>>>>>> en France, alors que leurs concurrents mondiaux sans pr=C3=A9senc= e en France >>>>>>>> livrent le m=C3=AAme trafic aux m=C3=AAmes FAI fran=C3=A7ais = sans payer cette taxe en >>>>>>>> pratique. Cela cr=C3=A9e une distorsion de concurrence au = d=C3=A9triment des >>>>>>>> acteurs >>>>>>>> nationaux et d=C3=A9classe les entreprises qui embauchent en = France. Une >>>>>>>> taxe >>>>>>>> qui produit l'effet inverse serait une meilleure approche. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> (a) Factur=C3=A9 au 95e percentile, ce port n'est pas plein en = permanence : >>>>>>>> avec >>>>>>>> un profil journalier type (22 % vers 4 h, 90 % vers 21 h), il >>>>>>>> transporte en >>>>>>>> moyenne 57 % de sa capacit=C3=A9, soit 18,6 millions de Go par = mois. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Frank >>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025 >>>>>>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 = <+421%20919%20416%20714> >>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <775%20230%20885> >>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Sascha Meinrath >>>>> Director, X-Lab >>>>> Palmer Chair in Telecommunications >>>>> Penn State University >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Sascha Meinrath > Director, X-Lab > Palmer Chair in Telecommunications > Penn State University >=20