From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66F449363AA for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 20:46:03 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762631162; x=1763235962; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=zyC4dEwLO4tKUf+0lRbTaqnccvmXrpLikWkkhHBBAoQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=K7ZRgxzERWZg2uvIXdEMJjxofY0T4lEVGG17UsjNQoxLZOvwYzbwXZvgAWrdLPlY 7JUwv8rWIIqiojZb/ihvzlWBEatsRGfj0LtdzEjx0HVv1U9TWFKDNmIAFDw86ua16 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member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?Re=3A_=5BLibreQoS=5D_Re=3A_Re=3A_Keynote=3A_QoE/QoS_-_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Bandwidth_Is_A_Lie!=C2=A0_at_WISPAPALOOZA_2025_=28October_16=29?= List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 8. Nov 2025, at 20:30, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > "Infrastructure (and at least access networks are at least > infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not something where the free market = typically > excels at." >=20 > Telecom operators want an oligopoly. If there is much competition they > complain about it. Oh, almost all companies want to find themselves in an under-regulated = monopoly situation, nothing surprising. The question is, should we as = society actually accept that? > Telecommunications are infrastructure like water and electricity > distribution. Every time I see I can call emergencies from mobile, but = I > don't have service from my operator I find it ridiculous. There is a > network there I could use, but "the free market" does not allow it. Well, the ugly truth about markets is, no side actually wants a fair = market, but would prefer a monopoly or monopsony, alas typically the = supply side is better positioned to reach that, especially with things = that lend themselves to natural monopolies like infrastructure. >=20 > Then, there is roaming and the prohibition of ISPs in contracts to = share > your connection, e.g. with neighbors, so you walk around any city and = you > have zillions of Wi-Fi access points, all closed, in the name of > profit/economic sustainability. Great. Late stage capitalism... let's see what comes next... ;) Maybe we can = fix things Regards Sebastian >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 >=20 > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 19:11:38 +0100 >> From: Sebastian Moeller >> Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - >> Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) >> To: J Pan >> Cc: dan , Jim Forster , >> Frantisek Borsik , Cake List >> , bloat = , >> codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, libreqos >> , l4s-discuss@ietf.org, >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Message-ID: <93519830-549F-459A-A737-792F18F3241C@gmx.de> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>=20 >> Hi J, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 8. Nov 2025, at 18:03, J Pan via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>=20 >>> yes, availability (at least two competing network providers with >>> reliable services), >>=20 >> As David already mentioned that gets us a duopoly, but going mildly = higher >> still results in an oligopoly... As a market realist (that is someone = who >> accepts efficient market when he sees them, but does not naive = believe in >> the fairy tales of the invisible hand of the market) I think that we = would >> be often much better off with a competently managed/regulated = monopoly than >> with duo- to oligopolies that are treated as if they were efficient >> markets... Infrastructure (and at least access networks are at least >> infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not something where the free market = typically >> excels at. >>=20 >>> affordability (so the competition to bring the >>> price and cost down) >>=20 >> I agree, but that is really at odds with your first point, to get = that >> from a market we clearly need to grow the supply side to get out of >> oligopoly territory, and I am not sure that that is actually = feasible. >>=20 >>> and applicability to modern internet applications >>> (video streaming, conferencing and gaming in addition to email and = web >>> browsing) shall be the user-centric metrics in addition to = throughput, >>> latency/jitter, packet loss, etc >>=20 >> I am 100% behind this. I will mention though that I believe that = latency >> increase under load is a decent proxy for the utility of a given = access >> link for the usability with interactive applications. >>=20 >> Regards >> Sebastian >>=20 >>> -- >>> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, >> Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>>=20 >>> On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 8:00=E2=80=AFAM dan = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I'm starting to see the signs that raw bandwidth is starting to = lose >>>> it's dominance for marketing. It's still the clear #1 ask but = price >>>> is rapidly overtaking speed for our customer requests. >>>>=20 >>>> I believe we've hit this era's threshold on throughput needs and >>>> people have started to notice that 'more' doesn't feel like a = faster >>>> service. >>>>=20 >>>> one common scenario that we are using to win customers, in = combination >>>> with facebook testimonials, is that people have bad experiences = with >>>> wifi and they order a faster service from cable/fiber company and = the >>>> wifi just gets worse. This scenario I think is incredibly common = and >>>> seems to be a catalyst for 'speed isn't everything'. We come in = with >>>> 50-500Mbps of service and solid whole-home wifi and they are >>>> converted. >>>>=20 >>>> I hope we're not to far off from having 'speed' be just a feature, = not >>>> the entire story. >>>>=20 >>>> and yes, we QoE or service with cake via libreqos which is the >>>> difference between great service and inadequate service IMO. >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFPM J Pan via LibreQoS >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> marketing is even worse. some claim 200mbps because 150mbps down = and >>>>> 50mbps up at peak data rate. of course, this is not the only = problem >>>>> in telecom, but likely the worst >>>>>=20 >>>>> nevertheless, there are stats such as 10% inflation for food and = 20% >>>>> for gas, so in total 30% ;-) at this rate, any numbers can be = floating >>>>> around but none are telling the truth ;-) >>>>> -- >>>>> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, >> Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 10:55=E2=80=AFAM Jim Forster = >> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Exactly so. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Consumer expectations and service provider marketing may be >> influenced by memories of experience when transmission delay did = matter. >> At one time I was very happy with my home ISDN connection, and even = shared >> it with my neighbor. At about 128kbs, it was three orders of = magnitude >> slower than my home fiber link. I=E2=80=99ve not run the numbers but = I=E2=80=99m pretty >> sure transimission speed mattered for video, even for crummy quality >> video, So then when I learned a bit about digital video, and = cable=E2=80=99s 64 >> QAM 27mbps channels, I got excited and thought, =E2=80=9Cwow, they = could deliver >> 1mbps service! And wouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool to have 1M home = online at 10x the >> speed of ISDN?=E2=80=9D. It was cool! And two more orders of = magnitude later, >> here we are. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =E2=80=94 Jim >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Nov 7, 2025, at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM, J Pan wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> latency is based on round-trip time, and one-way delay includes >>>>>> transmission delay, propagation delay, queuing delay and = processing >>>>>> delay. bandwidth does affect transmission delay (or serialization >>>>>> delay), propagation delay is determined by the link length and = the >>>>>> "travel" speed of the signal, queuing delay is the hardest part = and >>>>>> affected by the buffer bloat a lot, and processing delay is = another >>>>>> variable. of course, transmission delay takes less and less = portion of >>>>>> the end-to-end delay now due to higher and higher "speed" links >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> consumers may mistaken the speed of the link (the "width" of = their >>>>>> pipe) as how fast their internet is (the "length" of the pipe), = due to >>>>>> the poor terminology we have been using ;-) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net