From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4A833B29D for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 10:33:03 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1714487581; x=1715092381; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=dnweGD6TxA2tk6P1tTns5fb3Wkw2bgv6p+jIcdb003c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=uaQQDPs2R/dADhWVUmJUFk4osJMxLw+UuFOYARiI/ddAeTs9HFtJ4Q0QPE7eIyaw VIvg5AKaCJ/CvcnQfpuBs6ATvK4flw+tJY3nvsA9PhRyaVn1vE+B8LLXNQUwLORHG 0vJzgpPm/gWZ83dB3WTlsbckAbJ13ou1ptdWzo2iq1GkeJ7/ymg8wifml/1Z936Tr wu34PGO1cPb8jLMFkJQfjJ4lLjAHHrtCqQzwOsLqrGP4fW0C0EGH1EXqPoXUEadnE lPS9R4ffU6cOmZLRT402Sz0Z+OSQyfkiHqE4+SXMY6nN7zHVnIhxbrNJQNG5xL4IS Uryo6NvFrxuxnSt23w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N7i8Y-1sgDqp2sPS-015Ezn; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 16:33:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.500.171.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 16:32:51 +0200 Cc: Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.500.171.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:y66yqJmO7bDKlXt0ElaWHJTvfZz04Dqdrk7r8yLgohnDdZSpou3 jwYWomPhkusRo5oJYluMtgJ/C98xd/so4cS8S5dKZg6THUWlvcHrFWh9YTJjparVnNeQDyT E5CCuCd267vXh96AdtZr6X6aJuKmq3sagtmiaool9dSApXuS5I1UF5bw8zHVR+snrpvWHOw YDfwkUBXMusBfrqbZortg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:J1h+VsAyD9U=;YXbGqm9JawAeaggAFrRB0TM+SZw 5rDYgh5ykFtxMVJuNvATvTiBtBq6rRtKyxI1ToNYtmJal9JfrpoANIzIYm27aVg+o/XP7ZWkp UOreXCJoP1txOA4LceSD7W5h108jK+D0TMiv90QEMLhEPjMvVIWWWfSxXeDFw63Ojq0UMPx3n nFktsyt0+1yuOgM8iLVm/8Yz0EDv3gx7VDITTJ8Q9AP3cvNDo4agGRrZKJNyO2ZTbQT/qi2Q1 qEdGinKklqUcxqu0Fxc7kjBAX9+4PbvlaDmjWnfWykxg5vXHwNxRYvgoVy8ETNTZXGSwCMBfN wcnBUpe1FtSSn3jPX7QYgkrYANp1HUAPTxAVaoxTdpE8LTaVGse4/fgmjD/mR4z1KsB6MJ8Ap xcnrlXrX7k3Iqpfy+n0zuPE5UlHRKqd5U1gxR/7NnOCqUln+zNbrHlPFX3TeJI3YVjzuWA+Yw 9mks+tK0BDyvIuljdPqLOCvDOmW5ozUdgsu2UAr+Ss0aM6JK1M1DqxEVIbfbDp09kRxgZdaty SsfS5RgjWSgyoyKNJnTUrqdjjPm/iK0o9eJ4Kv3rOMpzgp0j+m2e0g7QbjmQon7qBS4HZzjqX IyPhRhFF8ZtIC25HjFcIb+pce0jylC2O/ZgNiTRmCenfvXXF//I4D20UY1xtMC846ocqGNmI8 cX9PxP5pfrSZheljRwh4SqTKhYXZr5XCfEPkTi7P8Xr89R/8F7Rqyc9Au+Bb8jj4GwcU7LA98 Wvsatb8qbcTXtTV5IDWz4mzX99HUjVHpzsxO3HLYwBENQutx8pr7elAJxb8RDQDaDqAxIClpJ j83XXYSyT8q65O2vc5b73MipV2C5YSEnXv1NqL7wky5h0= Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 14:33:04 -0000 Hi Alexandre, > On 30. Apr 2024, at 16:25, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Colin, > 8K usefulness over 4K: the higher the resolution the more it will be = possible to zoom in into paused images. It is one of the advantages. = People dont do that a lot these days but why not in the future. [SM] Because that is how in the past we envisioned the future, see here = h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhHwjceFcF2Q 'enhance'... > Spotify lower quality than CD and still usable: one would check not = Spotify, but other services for audiophiles; some of these use 'DSD' = formats which go way beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz = sampling freqs. They dont 'stream' but download. It is these = higher-than-384khz sampling rates equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the = equivalent of, I think of something like 10 times CD quality, I think). = If Spotify is the king of streamers, in the future other companies might = become the kings of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to be = invented. > For each of them, it is true, normal use will not expose any more = advantage than the previous version (no advantage of 8K over 4K, no = advantage of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the progress is ongoing = on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to DVD audio or to SD = (standard definition video). > Finally, 8K and DSD per se are requirements of just bandwidth. The = need of latency should be exposed there, and that is not = straightforward. But higher bandwidths will come with lower latencies = anyways.=20 [SM] How that? Capacity and latency are largely independent... think a = semi truck full of harddisks from NYC to LA has decent = capacity/'bandwidth' but lousy latency... > The quest of latency requirements might be, in fact, a quest to see = how one could use that low latency technology that is possible and = available anyways. > Alex > Le 30/04/2024 =C3=A0 16:00, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : >> David Fern=C3=A1ndez, those bitrates are safe numbers, but many = streams could get by with less at those resolutions. H.265 compression = is at a variable bit rate with simpler scenes requiring less bandwidth. = Note that 4K with HDR (30 bits per pixel rather than 24) consistently = also fits within 25Mbps. >>=20 >> David Lang, HDR is a requirement for 4K programming. That is not to = say that all 4K streams are in HDR, but in setting a required bandwidth, = because 4K signals can include HDR, the required bandwidth must = accommodate and allow for HDR. That said, I believe all modern 4K = programming on Netflix and Amazon Prime is HDR. Note David Fern=C3=A1ndez'= point that Spain independently reached the same conclusion as the US = streaming services of 25Mbps requirement for 4K. >>=20 >> Visually, to a person watching and assuming an OLED (or microLED) = display capable of showing the full color and contrast gamut of HDR (LCD = can't really do it justice, even with miniLED backlighting), the move to = HDR from SDR is more meaningful in most situations than the move from = 1080p to 4K. I don't believe going to further resolutions, scenes beyond = 4K (e.g., 8K), will add anything meaningful to a movie or television = viewer over 4K. Video games could benefit from the added resolution, but = lens aberration in cameras along with focal length and limited depth of = field render blurriness of even a sharp picture greater than the pixel = size in most scenes beyond about 4K - 5.5K. Video games don=E2=80=99t = suffer this problem because those scenes are rendered, eliminating = problems from camera lenses. So video games may still benefit from 8K = resolution, but streaming programming won=E2=80=99t.=20 >>=20 >> There is precedent for this in the audio streaming world: audio = streaming bitrates have retracted from prior peaks. Even though 48kHz = and higher bitrate audio available on DVD is superior to the audio = quality of 44.1kHz CDs, Spotify and Apple and most other streaming = services stream music at LOWER quality than CD. It=E2=80=99s good enough = for most people to not notice the difference. I don=E2=80=99t see much = push in the foreseeable future for programming beyond UHD (4K + HDR). = That=E2=80=99s not to say never, but there=E2=80=99s no real benefit to = it with current camera tech and screen sizes.=20 >>=20 >> Conclusion: for video streaming needs over the next decade or so, = 25Mbps should be appropriate. As David Fern=C3=A1ndez rightly points = out, H.266 and other future protocols will improve compression = capabilities and reduce bandwidth needs at any given resolution and = color bit depth, adding a bit more headroom for small improvements.=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Colin >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Starlink On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 9:31 AM >> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 9 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 +0200 >> From: David Fern=C3=A1ndez >> To: starlink >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>=20 >> Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left behind SD definitively = and moved to HD as standard quality, also starting to regularly = broadcast a channel with 4K quality. >>=20 >> A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second, handled with the HEVC = compression codec (H.265), and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 = Mbit/s. >>=20 >> Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s. >>=20 >> For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it may be hard to = distinguish it visually from the HD version of the same video (this was = also confirmed by SBTVD Forum Tests). >>=20 >> Then, 8K will come, eventually, requiring a minimum of ~32 Mbit/s: >> = https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-shape-i= n-europe >>=20 >> The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the required data rates by at = least 27%, at the expense of more computing power required, but somehow = it is claimed it will be more energy efficient. >> = https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-broadcast= -and-broadband-television >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> David >>=20 >> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) >> From: David Lang >> To: Colin_Higbie >> Cc: David Lang , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" >> >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" >>=20 >> Amazon, youtube set explicitly to 4k (I didn't say HDR) >>=20 >> David Lang >>=20 >> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Colin_Higbie wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 01:30:21 +0000 >>> From: Colin_Higbie >>> To: David Lang >>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" = >>> Subject: RE: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC >>>=20 >>> Was that 4K HDR (not SDR) using the standard protocols that = streaming >>>=20 >> services use (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, etc.) or was it just = some YouTube 4K SDR videos? YouTube will show "HDR" on the gear icon for = content that's 4K HDR. If it only shows "4K" instead of "HDR," then = means it's SDR. >> Note that if YouTube, if left to the default of Auto for streaming = resolution it will also automatically drop the quality to something that = fits within the bandwidth and most of the "4K" content on YouTube is = low-quality and not true UHD content (even beyond missing HDR). For = example, many smartphones will record 4K video, but their optics are not = sufficient to actually have distinct per-pixel image detail, meaning it = compresses down to a smaller image with no real additional loss in = picture quality, but only because it's really a 4K UHD stream to begin = with. >>=20 >>> Note that 4K video compression codecs are lossy, so the lower = quality=20 >>> the >>>=20 >> initial image, the lower the bandwidth needed to convey the stream = w/o additional quality loss. The needed bandwidth also changes with = scene complexity. Falling confetti, like on Newy Year's Eve or at the = Super Bowl make for one of the most demanding scenes. Lots of detailed = fire and explosions with fast-moving fast panning full dynamic = backgrounds are also tough for a compressed signal to preserve (but not = as hard as a screen full of falling confetti). >>=20 >>> I'm dubious that 8Mbps can handle that except for some of the = simplest >>>=20 >> video, like cartoons or fairly static scenes like the news. Those = scenes don't require much data, but that's not the case for all 4K HDR = scenes by any means. >>=20 >>> It's obviously in Netflix and the other streaming services' interest=20= >>> to >>>=20 >> be able to sell their more expensive 4K HDR service to as many people = as possible. There's a reason they won't offer it to anyone with less = than 25Mbps =E2=80=93 they don't want the complaints and service calls. = Now, to be fair, 4K HDR definitely doesn=E2=80=99t typically require = 25Mbps, but it's to their credit that they do include a small bandwidth = buffer. In my experience monitoring bandwidth usage for 4K HDR = streaming, 15Mbps is the minimum if doing nothing else and that will = frequently fall short, depending on the 4K HDR content. >>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Colin >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: David Lang >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:40 PM >>> To: Colin Higbie >>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC >>>=20 >>> hmm, before my DSL got disconnected (the carrier decided they didn't=20= >>> want >>>=20 >> to support it any more), I could stream 4k at 8Mb down if there = wasn't too much other activity on the network (doing so at 2x speed was = a problem) >>=20 >>> David Lang >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, Colin Higbie via Starlink wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:32:36 +0000 >>>> From: Colin Higbie via Starlink >>>> Reply-To: Colin Higbie >>>> To: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" = >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> I have now been trying to break the common conflation that = download >>>>>=20 >> "speed" >>=20 >>>>> means anything at all for day to day, minute to minute, second to=20= >>>>> second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now, for over 14 years. Am I=20= >>>>> succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and keep pointing at really=20= >>>>> terrible latency under load and wifi weirdnesses for many existing >>>>>=20 >> 100/20 services today. >>=20 >>>> While I completely agree that latency has bigger impact on how >>>>=20 >> responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think that 10Mbit is too = low for some standard applications regardless of latency: with the more = recent availability of 4K and higher streaming, that does require a = higher minimum bandwidth to work at all. One could argue that no one = NEEDS 4K streaming, but many families would view this as an important = part of what they do with their Internet (Starlink makes this reliably = possible at our farmhouse). 4K HDR-supporting TV's are among the most = popular TVs being purchased in the U.S. today. Netflix, Amazon, Max, = Disney and other streaming services provide a substantial portion of 4K = HDR content. >>=20 >>>> So, I agree that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR streaming.=20= >>>> 100/20 >>>>=20 >> would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple concurrent 4K users or = a 1-2 8K streams. >>=20 >>>> For me, not claiming any special expertise on market needs, just my=20= >>>> own >>>>=20 >> personal assessment on what typical families will need and care = about: >>=20 >>>> Latency: below 50ms under load always feels good except for some=20 >>>> intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to getting loaded latency=20= >>>> further below ~20ms for typical applications, with an exception for=20= >>>> cloud-based gaming that benefits with lower latency all the way = down=20 >>>> to about 5ms for young, really fast players, the rest of us won't = be=20 >>>> able to tell the difference) >>>>=20 >>>> Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if not doing UHD video=20 >>>> streaming >>>>=20 >>>> Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing UHD video streaming,=20 >>>> depending on # of streams or if wanting to be ready for 8k >>>>=20 >>>> Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for quality video = conferencing,=20 >>>> higher only needed for multiple concurrent outbound streams >>>>=20 >>>> So, for example (and ignoring upload for this), I would rather have >>>>=20 >> latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of 25Mbps than latency = of 1ms with a max bandwidth of 10Mbps, because the super-low latency = doesn't solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to watch 4K HDR = content. But, I'd also rather have latency of 20ms with 100Mbps DL, then = latency that exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL bandwidth. I think = the important thing is to reach "good enough" on both, not just excel at = one while falling short of "good enough" on the other. >>=20 >>>> Note that Starlink handles all of this well, including kids = watching >>>>=20 >> YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD Netflix, except the upload = speed occasionally tops at under 3Mbps for me, causing quality = degradation for outbound video calls (or used to, it seems to have = gotten better in recent months =E2=80=93 no problems since sometime in = 2023). >>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Colin >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>=20 >>>=20 >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: = >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink