From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 301463B2A4 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 12:12:06 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1673284318; bh=tfd8InJ5EPZ2DVqTvOmnj08/P2GGHLPt+7WT15gH9Tw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=edSun+vXpe2tIWovAQQiTylnGVHnYgP3Rl0UYH9N0pniv0WJTXPRNiX2tMGDwwoIN 5VRQbI10CnY8VB2hrcbwffZE+zB86gK3/xnwyT3jrGL059/Wn9Q0dId/Evl7ukndxI DVuqjrg9LC8Y9jfVhBfEfR6BMAvusDpSB8kXqiMZl82uB5Q9NxEaZRJSJEGW7N2fRj mkTCZsCE9fK25glJoH/KP4k705F3a1L5D5WL4/o7aIr50EoeQqnnvRwxMd/elqB+B8 gDGGlbVc1Bs8dERq93yJ3PjWkxD6bkwJgUCgc7oHSX6G7XfBD/UYeOeT7dfm13guye dd79XsEU1lGrA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXXyJ-1pGpcH0uEx-00YxBB; Mon, 09 Jan 2023 18:11:58 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2023 18:11:57 +0100 Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" , =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Doc Searls X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BR/rMOHNaTPI2sPmEhxmi0xp9yfexuOvhSyUh2yMVwg54f3qRSl guJvYXd9N7cThWERiaXdlX/zqEsKK8txnnQrC9Y83rXvVJYJ2YCvChKyR+iwi76SOV/0jGK VhnmSrlvpu5Z7KBbs5nUXnxKRDbyyTPtLEXzocy89QmKHThGeMPAw3mbNo4FEQB7cq3Eg68 SoZzvqzvYeQWZzqfocv0A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+Ugqblmm2bo=;QF172rET0k561EDkhQb6LcyvbJg ZUqGKgDWupNh9wyOgIEWYgKZlILh8ZzXjKZpWTBenoU80bUU0KJmI8cVEXOl17MUX9zU9BfdL aunOAyLXpuz8Ry8zFAQE2WBIOuC38rlRNISw1oeMkcAGRh+Cjfp6ArCAGCkOk854llUWamjRG woAxVh0wFTsZn/7UYhmSDzhy2f25pk7yarZr+WfK8S6BVFx8l8rJjR5IXxz6j22b8cC3dIWr3 UL7Aat2KvpIH8VnzkTtWNPyFbyb1U28b8/LNqvVaKZMbTeocYJ7B8uVgbbwWm05u4C4X/loHY UKuGBld4+XDKlE/+Pzi6ozwLaFyn8rGdCCO309famK2f8peJsMsVO0QBDxmmoSjePiuTEyZ+O 9ynm0PHQxDovs7EK+c6Stk7PK2r2lWfox363WJSTZ/yhiNc7bEjKRPgt/4wleT0HGZ6eBoM22 NAvTtyN5OrMkobvufzlGTMNUfocHIJLn/nkZgKJIi37l868GyPAlVnB3LLD6YuIDvzJ8m6CwX 1irTiZXeHqv3OR1vB3s+4oT9Z2bC9imUnSeqCmS66yX91MoHIfgoSeav9Vw2oiX5RU4hnELFi a91Y1Hl2YqjWSEK11K3zRXoz9fFbYuEpCQEmsOr6XNxLtNTC2BNZSE82HOG9dzea8kwjJtL52 LUtHJaojG1z0baKzPd2zv8XTihDwsBEuiYWSKtDhz+S7S29KzVc53QB6da14oPsx/XfO+mwHE S+NearYIkkr5Io9NgbxT4RN8uPzfVZlLHrEvHeZes5IRJFrl3+kpyOExvPVTEw1TlmFOp807i S/9sqK+eDpdaversOilW23eXreRiAl0fc3MDLAucuvYmDjE/exyCUntvYKaIMEeCkKmVRjUQ+ 4BRghv9MvrVZ78HKw2O37DbXjKHAnCNbHB9TUPqSAABjcZDYxx2uXUZWwUhV7z14ysMVeZ8Jx 1BcLnuWjCKBDkwZ/ZtuT1PT0H/Q= Subject: Re: [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 17:12:06 -0000 Hi Doc, > On Jan 9, 2023, at 16:45, Doc Searls via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Experience is also based on expectation, and nearly all the ISPs = advertise downstream speed, and compete on that. [SM] My experience when in southern CA was that there was little = true competition, in my case only charter delivered anything above ADSL = at all. But sure they advertised "up to XX Mbps". > This state of things reminds me of the TV business in the 50s and 60s, = when RCA, GE and Zenith competed on picture size (21 inches was tops) = more than picture quality. (Sony changed the game with Trinitron in = 1968.) So everybody naturally assumes that the quality of their Internet = service is almost entirely a matter of downstream speed. >=20 > While there is now a widespread understanding that fiber is best, some = ISPs talk a fiber game but actually do hybrid fiber coax, delivering = essentially coax's asymmetrical speeds. My sister has that with her = "fiber" AT&T service in North Carolina, and I have it here in Santa = Barbara with Cox.Neither are bad, but neither are FTTH. [SM] I am less discriminating, if an ISP can deliver = sufficiently low latency/jitter and high enough throughput, I could not = care less whether this is via photons in glass or via rfc1149 avian = carriers. >=20 > Until the ISPs begin to promote and compete on some kind of normative = metric for QoE (or other initialism), customers will continue to think = by default that downstream speed is the whole game. [SM] That is an issue best not left to the ISPs... in Germany = the national network regulatory agency (based on EU rules) defined a = mandatory set of numbers ISPs need to give to end users pre-sale and = created a method with which consumers can control whether the contracted = rates are actually delivered. These numbers contain three different = quality grades for up- and download respectively (out of the three one = is more important the "normally available data transfer rate"). However = where the so far have dropped the ball completely is in regards to = latency. (To illustrate how badly, the same agency recently defined the = minimum internet quality consumers are "guaranteed", but somehow = considered RTTs (the the agencies reference servers in Frankfurt) of <=3D = 150ms as acceptable)... > An interesting thing with Starlink is that people in rural areas = migrating off the likes of HughesNet care more about latency (or the = experience of its relative absence) than any other factor. Example: = https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/t5rx0s/switching_from_hughesnet= / [SM] Given the large propagation delay for geostationary orbits, = as well as prices and volume caps, I am not amazed that (at least for = some) current GEO users LEO seems $DEITY-sent. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Doc >=20 >> On Jan 9, 2023, at 6:50 AM, Livingood, Jason via Starlink = wrote: >>=20 >>> AFAIK, quality of service (QoS) refers to network characteristics = you >> can measure quantitatively without human opinion being involved, = i.e.: >> throughput, latency and packet losses, also availability (MTBF/(MTBF = + >> MTTR)). Then, quality of experience (QoE) refers to what the users >> experience, it is subjective, it must be done using subjects that are >> not engineers or telecom technicians, and it is defined by the ITU as >> the MOS (Mean Opinion Score), in Recommendation ITU-T P.800.1. >>=20 >> ISTM that everyone has a different view of QoS & QoE. My view is that = QoS refers to DSCP marking and such (so best effort, priority, less than = best effort, etc.) and/or some metric that the *network* is configured = to deliver. But...these are all proxies for end user QoE, which used to = be difficult to measure individually but is now easy/affordable to do at = scale. IMO all that really matters is the end user experience, and that = can be quantitatively measured (link capacity at peak hour, = responsiveness/working latency, uptime) and qualitatively measured. = After all, the end user does not care about what the network is in = theory configured to delivery but only their actual experience using the = Internet. __=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink