From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from 4.smtp.34sp.com (4.smtp.34sp.com [46.183.8.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5ABC3B2A4 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpauth2.mailarray.34sp.com (lvs5.34sp.com [46.183.13.73]) by 4.smtp.34sp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4699ABA163B for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:31:14 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thegreenwebfoundation.org; s=dkim; t=1681983074; bh=JUl53n0nuZr8WzhSoRv286hAw23PlLjoYCXVA6//6kg=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=twAh9LeFNHDbWxvlYBbIVD2rq9qGbUmZW9eKPYbRNPcR+TS/puuaxwgrBCDitNz6F BzVNWQ098WpvwSiZ9o/0ep7f+xPUsgh8Y1F0JlNX0GoZWUAM99uyL1wrogFBhowJ2D vCiZZT92NvnphGTMWPminfrS4lekv2ZtG0c3iAT0= Received: from [2001:4091:a245:81c1:8d7b:4c14:d4fc:43ea] (port=36673 helo=smtpclient.apple) by smtpauth2.mailarray.34sp.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQdF-00026J-H6; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:31:13 +0100 From: Chris Adams Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C0C68D8F-F5D8-48CC-B41B-CB47D2D802F0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.51.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:31:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Vint Cerf , "tom@evslin.com" , Michael Richardson , starlink , "e-impact@ietf.org" To: Daniel Schien References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.51.1.1) X-Authenticated-As: 2de73273b625ca0007baefbadf5a0ab8a433b10092c98f8690fcd5bcf1dec6c4 X-OriginalSMTPIP: 2001:4091:a245:81c1:8d7b:4c14:d4fc:43ea X-34spcom-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-34spcom-MailScanner-ID: 4699ABA163B.A0445 X-34spcom-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-34spcom-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-0.11, required 6.5, autolearn=disabled, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00, SPF_PASS -0.00, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE -0.01) X-34spcom-MailScanner-From: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org X-Spam-Status: No X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 22:19:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 09:31:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C0C68D8F-F5D8-48CC-B41B-CB47D2D802F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi folks, Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres = in space=E2=80=9D story or the report? The press release mentioned solar powerplants generating several hundred = megawatts. That would require a massive amount of solar! For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as = of June 2021: https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/ Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of = 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there. For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of = magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even = before you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square = kilometres of solar panel into orbit. C Chris Adams Executive Director w: thegreenwebfoundation.org e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org t: @mrchrisadams German Office Naunynstrasse 40 10999 Berlin Germany See our contact page for more details https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ Book a short call with me to discuss something. https://cal.com/mrchrisadams Chris Adams Executive Director w: thegreenwebfoundation.org e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org t: @mrchrisadams German Office Naunynstrasse 40 10999 Berlin Germany See our contact page for more details https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ Book a short call with me to discuss something. https://cal.com/mrchrisadams > On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien = wrote: >=20 > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the = time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up = with them.=20 >=20 > I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.=20 >=20 > Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite = payload: >=20 > "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 = launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with = a re-usable rocket." >=20 > Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a = fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. >=20 > The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: >=20 > "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of = all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." >=20 > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of = 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total = (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. = That's just completely wrong. >=20 >=20 > Daniel Schien > Senior Lecturer in Computer Science > Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol > Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022 >=20 > bris.ac.uk/software-engineering <> > Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI >=20 > Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB > Book a meeting: = https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki= = > From: E-impact on behalf of Vint Cerf = > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM > To: tom@evslin.com > Cc: Michael Richardson ; starlink = ; e-impact@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber = IXPs in space) > =20 > O&M will be a bear > v >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink = > = wrote: > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the = exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, = things have not happened as quickly as I predicted = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-ro= admap.html >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink > On Behalf Of Michael = Richardson via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM > To: starlink >; e-impact@ietf.org = > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) >=20 >=20 > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"! >=20 > = https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales= -alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data >=20 > Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint = company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the = European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for = European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for = data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe = research program. >=20 > Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is = becoming a major > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data = centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential = pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. >=20 > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon = emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures = will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based = data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon = neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to = develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and = operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance = technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD = demonstrator. >=20 > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based = data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their = ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of = Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a = more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus = regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as = the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 >=20 >=20 > until further notice >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > E-impact mailing list > E-impact@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact --Apple-Mail=_C0C68D8F-F5D8-48CC-B41B-CB47D2D802F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi = folks,

Is there a link to the underlying = assumptions in for this "data centres in space=E2=80=9D story or the = report?

The press release mentioned solar = powerplants generating several hundred megawatts. That would require = a massive amount of solar!

For context, = this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as of June = 2021:

Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a = surface areas of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from = there.

For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d = need panels to be orders of magnitude more efficient than they are on = land when in space, even before you think about how heavy it would be = get multiple square kilometres of solar panel into = orbit.

C


=
Chris Adams

Executive = Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegree= nwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German = Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our = contact page for more details
Chris Adams

Executive = Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegree= nwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German = Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our = contact page for more details
https://www.thegre= enwebfoundation.org/contact/

Book a short call with me to = discuss something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
=

On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, = Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:

I assume any object in orbit will be hidden = from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty = big battery to go up with them. 

I'd like to also know what the launch cost = is. 

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, = for a 100kg satellite = payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA = satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite = built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should = go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter = sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint = wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling = every year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 = years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling = every year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
Department of Computer = Science | University of = Bristol
Submit software engineering project ideas for = 2022

bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI=

Merchant Venturers Building , = Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeH= ours@bristol.ac.uk/booki

From: E-impact = <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf = <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org = <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: = fiber IXPs in space)
 
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at = 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.= net> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the = exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, = things have not happened as quickly as I predicted = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-ro= admap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On = Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in = space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-rel= ease/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint = company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the = European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for = European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast = Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is = becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data = centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential = pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon = emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures = will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based = data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that = it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the = deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using = robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data = centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground = counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of = Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could = thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as = well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in = orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



--
E-impact mailing = list
E-impact@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impac= t

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