From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A96F69428BD for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2025 17:01:30 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762790490; x=1763395290; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=PJDOgpxei55aAasQL22N9gc3crxlfc7b9gnPx3g4O1k=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=eiLw6DH8Fx0TqWrcn525nwvYjpGqU6e/YjLzcGfY7SP5TZ/1kIXd1FhN8Kk7RExZ o+3jRwk6gNLULmD7xvI/JlSQ2VOid7WfW22qVnSc4G3aEpdqVjLB5wXfx0Al1NrSz 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nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?Re=3A_=5BLibreQoS=5D_Re=3A_Re=3A_Keynote=3A_QoE/QoS_-_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Bandwidth_Is_A_Lie!=C2=A0_at_WISPAPALOOZA_2025_=28October_16=29?= List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi David, > On 10. Nov 2025, at 12:41, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > In Spain ISDN was replaced by DSL and now both, HFC and DSL and the = POTS > have been replaced by FTTH. I would guess by DSL you mostly mean ADSL? Over here ADSL is only used = on long rural lines everywhere else it is mostly VDSL2@FTTC with 100/40 = or even 250/40 Mbps plans available on most links. The incumbent still = spent time upgrading to FTTC while Spain was already focussing on FTTH. = The results are twofold: a) most users can get access rates via DSL that make most application = work well enough b) we did not start the FTTH roll-out while interest rates were low ;) Also, to add insult to injury, I have seen estimates for the average = home connected for Spain and Francs (unsure why these were lumped = together) of around 200-300 Euro, while the cost in Germany is more in = the 2000-4000 Euro range... (there are almost no utility poles in use in = Germany and putting cables underground is slower and more expensive). >=20 > Minimum you can get is 100 Mbit/s and max 10 Gbit/s (symmetrical), No doubt that stiff gets advertized as 10 Gbps, but I am willing to bet = that this mostly is XGS-PON, likely with FEC and that simply does not = have a gross rate of 10 Gbps.... (XGSPON has a gross rate of 9.95328 and = with the 216/248 stadard FEC this gets us to a shared 9.95328 * = (216/248) =3D 8.66899 Gbps, even less of 10 Gbps, but I understand = marketing loves round numbers) > but for > households max 1 Gbit/s. Interesting, Switzerland and France offer >> 1 Gbps even for private = households (not that typical houlsehold would notice the difference = between 1 and say 2 Gbps in normal use). >=20 > Prices start from ~20 euros/month. Sweet, proces over here rather start at 35 Euros, or 45 for fiber... >=20 > The quality of the service that ISPs with revenues higher than 20 = millions > are obliged to report follows ETSI standards (mainly speed tests), but = will > include latency in 2026 ( as measured by IETF RFC 2681), jitter and = packet > losses: >=20 > https://www.cnmc.es/sites/default/files/5753856.pdf I occasionally am puzzled by the regulators... nothing bad about that = RFC, except is seems rather complicated for a simple use case, and more = to the point the regulator failedf to require latency under load = numbers, which tend to be quite informative how well a link will do = under sustained loads around saturation. Thanks for the information Sebastian >=20 > Regards >=20 > David >=20 >=20 > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2025 07:27:37 +0100 >> From: Sebastian Moeller >> Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - >> Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) >> To: Jim Forster >> Cc: J Pan , dan , Frantisek Borsik >> , Cake List < >> cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>, >> bloat , = codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, >> libreqos , = l4s-discuss@ietf.org, >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 10 November 2025 05:48:38 CET, Jim Forster = >> wrote: >>>> On Nov 8, 2025, at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> As a market realist (that is someone who accepts efficient market = when >> he sees them, but does not naive believe in the fairy tales of the >> invisible hand of the market) I think that we would be often much = better >> off with a competently managed/regulated monopoly than with duo- to >> oligopolies that are treated as if they were efficient markets... >> Infrastructure (and at least access networks are at least >> infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not something where the free market = typically >> excels at. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Yeah, I also don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s an efficient, fair, = market here that >> gets us what we w. In some ways, the Digital Divide is an expected = outcome >> of capital allocation decisions by deregulated companies in a sector = that >> has economies of scale and network effects. >>=20 >> Indeed... I just note that the POTS network was much more = comprehensive in >> its reach due to stricter regulation... >>=20 >>>=20 >>> At the same time, a "competently managed/regulated monopoly=E2=80=9D = may be as >> uncommon as Homo Economicus sitings are. >>=20 >> Na, only if we put our aim for competence too high ;) . Over here >> electricity, water and street "networks" are dece >> ntly regulated infrastructure. >>=20 >>> Which example can you cite? NZ? UK? SE? And have they transitioned >> smoothly to new technology that would diminish the value of their = existing >> infrastructure? >>=20 >> Tricky... for infrastructure in general I believe there are loads of >> examples in Europe, for internet access networks it gets a bit = trickier, >> but there are some examples of combining a single network with = operator >> competition. (And that is my preferred model, monopoly network with >> regulated and fair access for operators, and then have as many = operators as >> possibke offer their services over that network). But partial = examples >> exist, e.g. the fiber network built in Amsterdam, or the point to = point >> fiber network in switzerland where the incumbent built most of the = ftth >> network and is regulated to physically unbundle individual lines to = end >> customers, resultung in surprising competition of ISPs operating = different >> technology over the same fibers (swisscom uses xgspon, salt.ch uses = their >> own xgspin OLTs, init7 uses AON up to 25 Gbps). Sweden also seems to = have a >> decent (albeit not regulated) separation between network operators = and ISPs >> that offer services over these networks. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I recall that in the US prior to the .com boom, the telco=E2=80=99s = idea of >> broadband was ISDN or maybe DSL or SMDS. They wrote many papers, had = lots >> of trials, but did not aggressively do broadband, >>=20 >> Yes, I agree that the old model of a vertically integrated full = service >> telco breed complacency and was not ideal either (even though the = POTS >> network had better reach than the HFC networks). >>=20 >> : 'Everyone knew=E2=80=99 that the cablecos=E2=80=99 HFC would never = work, and that they >> could not do digital and certainly not voice, HFC worked, and DOCSIS = was a >> big success. That pressured the telcos to start actually deploying = DSL, but >> it was too late, and the cablecos have dominated US broadband for a = couple >> of decades. >>=20 >> The outcome in Germany was different... hfc networks only ever = reached >> around 75% of households and never exceeded 10 of estimated 45 = million >> access sites for broadband services, while DSL still serves almost 23 >> million (and reaches almost all 45 million).But yes on the technology = side >> it likely was hfc's pressure that sped up dsl development. >> Now, the german market is a bit odd, as customers are neither = terribly >> hungry for high capacity nor terribly price sensitive (the old = ex-monopoly >> telco still serves most dsl customers in spite of being more = expensive due >> to valid regulatory interventions). >>=20 >> Regards >> Sebastian >>=20 >> P.S.: I understand that in this question there are of course multiple >> equally valid and justifyable positions one could take, this just = happens >> to be mine. A couple of friendly ISPs for example reject this idea as = they >> consider access networks to be a field where ISPs can differentiate = and >> compete (some of them however proposed a regulated middle mile to be = able >> to economically reach IXs and peering points to even the playing = field). >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Jim >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net