From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE26C3B29E for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 04:34:20 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1681806858; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=Piz5MFV5yWA3Hso47O4dGJz75AgYDmpYqomMTbyLSEo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=HQH/envRzntqYWoTzTPQTsn+3h77HgCNwiPWQhv0W5e//aC4IDqJN2k5wbfhK81Xf oLt0l8PtrnCZ3kNEszM3VQu3HcXOPvGnct+cn6MFNW2IbEgcdxiyURNPV7O4rcBlZ+ 4Je/mrqNbzmIcCaf59E4GnojL64Kyz4BcYe9kibcD4LSfsDbIh7tP332jqm60vzEVh QkokBLJogjWeupr5BTlbgSQ0blSFk670Uae0qlobLQ1ZfRmjr7fBHlPKo0Mjbue1fN MOHPLhSAazFusU6mDEeQ5yn08BTxcgclgVp2hNywzOVbxaXTe91+rTtr91oIpgUlkY KlcSqlObTWt0w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MD9XF-1pgCTr3UJd-009CWC; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:34:18 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.3\)) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:34:18 +0200 References: <202304171438.33HEcqi7056122@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> To: =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez_via_Starlink?= In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.3) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7hxeCHh+cwCg+GQ+VxIilTVSSzVgoy6Gk9FDQ6kgdCuXEq+Iq4+ eUq7KTSB160qZLRaxIivG35qjQFJEj20r+PoScdn7Z1z7MpUAtxrcs3/TYq4dDYeovwqK/1 GmQRHp0PWGOWFStZDSIUBhZihr/MSKZ2FhRW3IKiYinDuHCrUrUoog9wKZr7ihXs6sQmmeG KkaNIjcd8z/PEma6yOjyA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:O3TIyC1Mee4=;WGxV73lHK8eVCAIA1lVb83midM3 pgO+68lPjNwKK/PBDjdvwSc28KZvbfxTk1IAo+GtrEok/uOiw7vmZzrr40tzWvxrghuKO6fxX uKCKcYocvcwve54MESlvYyy7KvT1S1Bavp/iaXQyYJRR0+Kzhgw6tI52ZFiYGzShS0midlcqI /uxJGDuaG8H4Jprw+laD63vJxeYWjAnQct8sP6bSmqmiAilVt/KvWjJzH2wsmt5KHe/7M75LY qtNIH051yX/i1ivTVI4hjjlt1kl99rbeoTmPTqqLIukiwDkSeQHwpT+fAr4nW3PGG2cv2/VBI asLaShgxO3MFUTQETrgk8ysRKOna/qDptDJrbhQiiFYj4ThlALb+cZ5IxkjMO1i87fh2e+uMh VhE1XrHGF7S2kCwdmV2m5RiYviUup5En7HpBXSv7cf277uIA4TkhFrVyJcZHqV+7eo2qByx7B 4yYYDJHUrCLZw9gOn+Xih1xfflFhyQM2Tlq2TXkiP4hR5RMXVZrmIEMJCTpQds913RW4in6C/ ZfpEGYlsjYtLOYOv8emx5E0HvDnKRACfcTNHNRwu50ZCn0106kR1fPytnxpIXw8FjmKrJ0gOU 36kfecAzl/lp0Fk185jw0h5nSBGYVTpDO/uZcDjSpNZEvp0Re2R9s5KcawLoa9QPkTt5eleBc uESwCz/aZqswtgtZOE/BkMceOISrItAqpb+vnckAUnZqnU1UlYwUwFXM6GYp1ER0+64Y1lwYG 8iN5pVMt2lsg8b6nPMJnr1KA92gGPgeiKIkLvni9PMwCPBPodTm3NKkM/o4Kd+BipGN7qaOqs p6XOiTZz+ekaopQXXobv58Pm9lg9g2kwGpAFGW3MI6vxe0HCmGyJrqP5N0bKuFgp58s3xItRP G2Tc4p/utzoib1LY8RCu5vvzTUdTENWc5ALzOU99mIC3tyuUMNHahiQKIGDd/YgLqiD32xJXp /+6vGPyV7p8uf05pjxhXY7afPrg= Subject: Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:34:21 -0000 Hi David, > On Apr 18, 2023, at 09:46, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > PEPs have been mentioned as an example of so called stealth = optimization. >=20 > Another example, I think it is IGMP snooping: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGMP_snooping I think this is different from "PEPs" (I really dislike the = marketing naming... IGMP snooping arguably deals to deal with the fact = that IGMP has a different idea of unicast/multicast scoping than is = optimal for switched L2 network domains... it is also as far as I can = tell opt-in in that one needs to activate it in once's L2.5 devices = first. I am not sure whether norrmal geo-stationary internet users can = opt-out of the TCP shenanigans played by PEPs? > So, well, maybe this so called DNS stealth optimization is not so bad, > if it really is easy to implement and it brings benefits (RTT by > half), but pros and cons should be carefully evaluated. I heartily disagree, stealth DNS "optimization" is not something = an ISP should be caught doing behind their users backs. I remember when = my former ISPs insisted upon capturing DNS queries to non-existent = domains to an advertisement page of their own, I was neither impressed = nor happy (even though they did offer an opt-out). Now, if a hypothetical starlink offer would do that DNS snooping only = for DNS queries directed against starlink's own DNS server IP addresses = that would be palatable from a who handles the query perspective = (starlink in both cases), but from a layering violation perspective this = still seems rather vile. If the want to offer DNS forwarders in space, = they should simply do so overtly and not high-jack packets directed to a = different server. At least that is my subjective take on this issue. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 > 2023-04-17 21:00 GMT+02:00, David Lang : >> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023, David Fern?ndez via Starlink wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> The idea would be that the satellite inspects IP packets and when = it >>>>> detects a DNS query, instead of forwarding the packet to ground >>>>> station, it just answers back to the sender of the query. >>>>=20 >>>> This would be a bad way to implement it. You don't want to override >>>> queries to >>>> other DNS servers, but it would be very easy to create an anycast = address >>>> that >>>> is served by the satellites. >>>=20 >>> Yes, and the later is what I proposed, the idea of intercepting >>> someone ELSE'S anycast address and processing it would be >>> wrong in many ways, in effect a Man In the Middle attack >>> as stated else where. >>=20 >> I was assuming that it would be done in coordination with the = existing user, >> not >> as a stealth optimization. I should have made that clear. >>=20 >> David Lang >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink