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[72.253.192.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1f6ce405062sm23938445ad.242.2024.06.07.13.09.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jun 2024 13:09:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0E4033C0-E5CF-46C5-8642-FAB9E7BDD106"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 10:09:44 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink To: David Lang References: <467ccff0-5586-4b9f-b656-e1aa3d1865b4@kit.edu> <2F613DF8-3F06-4355-82F6-5543565DFE4A@gmx.de> <17250.1717715438@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2024 20:09:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0E4033C0-E5CF-46C5-8642-FAB9E7BDD106 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3DB49ACD-9660-4814-A2CD-B3D0DBACDADA" --Apple-Mail=_3DB49ACD-9660-4814-A2CD-B3D0DBACDADA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 7, 2024, at 7:51 AM, David Lang wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 7 Jun 2024, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote: >=20 >> A lot of business processes use a web portal, e.g. SalesForce. Their = productivity is highly sensitive to latency. The closes categorization = that legislators/regulators might relate to is telemarketing. A lot of = business solutions use the similar technology but not for telemarketing. = Any ideas on a better name for this group of business solutions. Having = a named use case that is sensitive to latency would help. >=20 > I would expect that any ISP tht does well for 5-10 would work for that = use case. Does it really need a separate category listed? >=20 5-10? Units? The existing list of use cases can be delivered with terrible latency. I am asking if we need a use case where it is obvious that latency has = an impact. Our challenge is ordinary people don=E2=80=99t understand why they = should care about latency. The need latency to become personal. Gene > David Lang >=20 >>> On Jun 6, 2024, at 8:20 PM, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi MIchael, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 7. Jun 2024, at 01:10, Michael Richardson via Starlink = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = wrote: >>>>> [SM] Yes, however Gaming is not in the enumerated list of = use-cases the >>>>> regulator cares about (in the context of the minimal internet = quality >>>>> end users are guaranteed). >>>>=20 >>>> That's too bad, because online work/school are effectively a = technology >>>> subset of gaming :-) >>>=20 >>> [SM] I tend to agree that gamers can be seen as canaries in the coal = mine regarding latency, but in this specific case my opion on what = should or should not be taken into account is irrelevant, because the = list of use-cases is explicitly mentioned in the text of the law... = First by referencing DIRECTIVE (EU) 2018/1972 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT = AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 December 2018 establishing the European = Electronic Communications Code >>> = https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELEX:32018L197= 2#d1e32-196-1 >>> ANNEX V >>> MINIMUM SET OF SERVICES WHICH THE ADEQUATE BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS = SERVICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 84(3) SHALL BE CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING >>> (1) E-mail >>> (2) search engines enabling search and finding of all type of = information( >>> 3) basic training and education online tools >>> (4) online newspapers or news >>> (5) buying or ordering goods or services online >>> (6) job searching and job searching tools >>> (7) professional networking >>> (8) internet banking >>> (9) eGovernment service use >>> (10) social media and instant messaging >>> (11) calls and video calls (standard quality) >>>=20 >>> and then by adding >>> "Teleheimarbeit einschlie=C3=9Flich Verschl=C3=BCsselungsverfahren = im =C3=BCblichen Umfang und eine f=C3=BCr Verbraucher markt=C3=BCbliche = Nutzung von Online-Inhaltediensten erm=C3=B6glichen." >>>=20 >>> in the text iof the law, which roughly translates to: >>> home office/remote desktop including common encryption methods as = well as a the capability to per-use on-line content services on a level = appropriate for consumers. >>>=20 >>> Note how gaming is not enumerated and at best could be read into the = 'in-line content' clause... or maybe the "(5) buying or ordering goods = or services online". I see an uphill battle arguing for loiw latency if = all I can bring, is 'gamers desire/require' lower latencies... (not that = this argument is wrong, but it ewill give me little leverage as gaming, = for all the revenue it brings (bigger than Hollywood) is not held in = high regard). >>>=20 >>>> And gamers seem to know good quality, it's somewhat easy to test = and gamers >>>> aren't afraid to demand it, changing ISPs if they have to. >>>=20 >>> [SM] The context here is a right to getting internet access with = specific minimum guarantees at an affordable price, people who will need = to use this law likely have no real options... otherwise no need to = pound on that law... > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_3DB49ACD-9660-4814-A2CD-B3D0DBACDADA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8


On Jun 7, 2024, at 7:51 AM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> = wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:

A lot of = business processes use a web portal, e.g. SalesForce. Their productivity = is highly sensitive to latency. The closes categorization that = legislators/regulators might relate to is telemarketing. A lot of = business solutions use the similar technology but not for telemarketing. = Any ideas on a better name for this group of business solutions. Having = a named use case that is sensitive to latency would help.

I would expect that any ISP tht = does well for 5-10 would work for that use case. Does it really need a = separate category listed?


5-10? = Units? 

The existing list of = use cases can be delivered with terrible latency.
I am asking = if we need a use case where it is obvious that latency has an = impact.

Our challenge is ordinary = people don=E2=80=99t understand why they should care about latency. The = need latency to become personal.

Gene

David Lang

On Jun 6, 2024, at 8:20 PM, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hi MIchael,


On 7. Jun 2024, at = 01:10, Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
[SM] Yes, however Gaming = is not in the enumerated list of use-cases the
regulator = cares about (in the context of the minimal internet quality
end users are guaranteed).

That's too bad, because online work/school are effectively a = technology
subset of gaming :-)

[SM] I tend to agree that gamers = can be seen as canaries in the coal mine regarding latency, but in this = specific case my opion on what should or should not be taken into = account is irrelevant, because the list of use-cases is explicitly = mentioned in the text of the law...  First by referencing DIRECTIVE = (EU) 2018/1972 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 = December 2018 establishing the European Electronic Communications = Code
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELE= X:32018L1972#d1e32-196-1
ANNEX V
MINIMUM = SET OF SERVICES WHICH THE ADEQUATE BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS SERVICE IN = ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 84(3) SHALL BE CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING
(1) E-mail
(2) search engines enabling search = and finding of all type of information(
3) basic training = and education online tools
(4) online newspapers or = news
(5) buying or ordering goods or services online
(6) job searching and job searching tools
(7) = professional networking
(8) internet banking
(9) eGovernment service use
(10) social media = and instant messaging
(11) calls and video calls (standard = quality)

and then by adding
"Teleheimarbeit einschlie=C3=9Flich = Verschl=C3=BCsselungsverfahren im =C3=BCblichen Umfang und eine f=C3=BCr = Verbraucher markt=C3=BCbliche Nutzung von Online-Inhaltediensten = erm=C3=B6glichen."

in the text iof the law, = which roughly translates to:
home office/remote desktop = including common encryption methods as well as a the capability to = per-use on-line content services on a level appropriate for = consumers.

Note how gaming is not = enumerated and at best could be read into the 'in-line content' = clause... or maybe the "(5) buying or ordering goods or services = online". I see an uphill battle arguing for loiw latency if all I can = bring, is 'gamers desire/require' lower latencies... (not that this = argument is wrong, but it ewill give me little leverage as gaming, for = all the revenue it brings (bigger than Hollywood) is not held in high = regard).

And gamers seem to know good quality, it's somewhat easy to = test and gamers
aren't afraid to demand it, changing ISPs = if they have to.

[SM] The = context here is a right to getting internet access with specific minimum = guarantees at an affordable price, people who will need to use this law = likely have no real options... otherwise no need to pound on that = law...
__________________________________________= _____
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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