From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAC2F3B29D for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1646675391; bh=i7u5xCqPkd29eIKuJPUI/8etXpEprlAUoWyriENI+s0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=faFL253L9pcRFzxcxXdF2rU3n5aa52dEkFPonwiB83vs1ye9JTze5NPceNqn8bbeS ZbEO7JER+gRj57w3il4q1Wqj2K05kZZfLTxVALopYuCD+xUCvVWumMtewEjWk78IhM WwbTqGjf1BfykrYia3y97CU0DqmoBhGp3bW8A1M0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([80.187.112.31]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mulm5-1oHs8y0CdX-00rrR8; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:49:51 +0100 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:49:48 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ben Greear User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <1646527180.51036626@apps.rackspace.com> <1646601019.667431004@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----1A7GXIN2I2ETDW0QZ8SEA0NGJMYTZQ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CINvNOeH17jxBs/QbHR34q3CpQea3ES1CIe197PjPYiAJA0ZWSt YWaS7se98Pmov88Q1LpcWjBkBHdqlCPXCz6OHH1pt4vh7/6WhEcWAZMvDJ12Ibdzekl1u2B di7Zt+L5vgqp6I9b8WcQzCMsB0caM5h0qHKA2MMVDdaksDNj3YuRSANS0Cn5hSPqhAfTIWK dq0Q8xR6NM6487MVWVXAQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DSyvFe1xjv4=:gjf87/c3tvxC2xtEkryKc0 lx27WLZtAdMtXeiCc9WYS7Y8BFsu5VuPQ4ldz6ijgqtnZaC/ePkdKh7EwV/4GoF3VHkhOOckq cOMNqRLR5O/6xeG6spM7QqR/uPwuO0z98MHdMKD02yxiB3sbPZyjc6ANe2ady3gUDzWCmY7mJ anJT6a1Grc41/z+XhnvFnbJuwJEWFDKevKF5YBq0TENzm/nxOsY6PteStrdNPuQ1MkcJJSjKg Sr3ACl6nVZkFbWsndF+U/8xHQuhOU/vTh3LD62IHVWYm2bURPsAB0SmwG52MNRcuviJyQ790r gmE7gKhY2EMnaWREAfZ3tY03BC7ch7T/28Q3Xn9PnT+rfkgScZaRz+TeBnOtogTLzPkK6K++R EI5QZze6DPA/+8C3B9HfPPK5gvXqlJJYk48Y+tTK2qMAHbZA3s5TN2TDWdjMfHT5pk5wA+x8h 6xS0CDufNN9VXMfFggqFhOXOYbnsZAH+pspafNzTfxrsXdVgHPTHpsfyfQ/iCgop5+eNd6RQV 2ZGenlLAoDU47Ghtekwo1yfZ/vRtDJx4zpfBR2PzBXmpJbSGO+noiqzqF+Nfo0uST9owQ3N/M n44iBHdufxEujiFF9K1U4AkWdOKHGOcRKlEo9Y+aA6CKz3aUwr7dbffOieVBG6qL/AGRZUBTw jz90p5DzjtAqbjjS5LjXKh5BGJCYBzx7GFA0n2JQNbTsLQVps0lviTwi4lyNu1YMoPqEU31J9 gScCQ1kTYyLb7PpKEuy08jyESpIV8SazplhfFx/WjgwWODAMnmneV1uYJhoGKw69L1cT8KLvj lqGPvKY0p1uXsYblDHEg/GpMG6T5eghwFkYIeEWZFlO2VbfE+ly7ntGVYwD6mFLfla5jcOEBd 2h+iQeu8wBPnmHKHz1+x3/Yeb/XeUwuSiUWvoHmTWnbrAxW23vjAea54Pne0kUd353eoldiee Ai3sDO1AnQhEFMe16JS8qyguwGRj9y8NARz1HbUJJ1A/c6EtlFGNoYs0Ogehe1StPZvLIyndc qc1RMnmwqeNDHYE5l07EM/u+HxQMrechqsEiFGO0nJCJotNo5rB+yuvuUvMiA4X1pbcBO4kkn ns9+pQuHo2R1K0= Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 17:49:55 -0000 ------1A7GXIN2I2ETDW0QZ8SEA0NGJMYTZQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable UUCP? On 7 March 2022 18:34:11 CET, Ben Greear wrote= : >On 3/6/22 1:10 PM, David P=2E Reed wrote: >> Very interesting info about where current ground stations are, but of c= ourse Kyiv, Lviv, Kharkiv are close to some adjacent countries that already= have Starlink=20 >> ground stations (didn't know they were up and running in Turkey)=2E >>=20 >> Regarding ground-level repeating, the radio horizon is very short excep= t in VHF where you can in principle bounce off the ionosphere=2E Don't join= the Flat Earth=20 >> Society, the earth isn't very flat at all=2E >>=20 >> (yes, some small bands actually bend around the earth in the Troposhere= , but bitrates feasible in that bandwidth is very poor=2E Maybe voice grade= ) >>=20 >> Microwave multihop links require LOS and except from mountaintop to mou= ntaintop, it's hard to maintain them cheaply - Wall St uses microwaves betw= een NYC and=20 >> Chicago, because the latency is much lower number of microseconds than = direct fiber would be (little known fact about the difference between speed= of light in=20 >> glass vs=2E air)=2E >>=20 >> These technologies are "off the shelf" for fixed wireless deployment, b= ut if I were trying to maintain or build a quick replacement for existing c= ables using=20 >> wireless, I suspect it would largely be too little, too late=2E > >For email, and anything else that can be stored and forwarded, you should= be able to zig-zag from ground to sky to ground, >but it would take specialized software setup on the ground intermediate h= ops (something like bittorrent and/or an email >proxy I guess), and it would require the sky to be able to hair-pin groun= d-to-ground=2E So, a bit of work, but hopefully is >software-only fix=2E > >For instance: Ground-east-1 <-> sky-to-the-west <-> ground-middle <-> sk= y-more-to-the-west <-> internet-ground-station-to-the-west >And maybe it is not directly due west due to orbital mechanics, but I thi= nk you get the idea=2E > >Latency would be in minutes or maybe hours, but that is still a lot bette= r than nothing=2E > >Thanks, >Ben > >--=20 >Ben Greear >Candela Technologies Inc http://www=2Ecandelatech=2Ecom > >_______________________________________________ >Starlink mailing list >Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------1A7GXIN2I2ETDW0QZ8SEA0NGJMYTZQ Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable UUCP?

On 7 March= 2022 18:34:11 CET, Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech=2Ecom> wrote: 
On 3/6/22 1:10 PM, David P=2E Reed wrot=
e:
Very interesting inf=
o about where current ground stations are, but of course Kyiv, Lviv, Kharki=
v are close to some adjacent countries that already have Starlink 
groun=
d stations (didn't know they were up and running in Turkey)=2E

Regar=
ding ground-level repeating, the radio horizon is very short except in VHF =
where you can in principle bounce off the ionosphere=2E Don't join the Flat=
 Earth 
Society, the earth isn't very flat at all=2E

(yes, some s=
mall bands actually bend around the earth in the Troposhere, but bitrates f=
easible in that bandwidth is very poor=2E Maybe voice grade)

Microwa=
ve multihop links require LOS and except from mountaintop to mountaintop, i=
t's hard to maintain them cheaply - Wall St uses microwaves between NYC and=
 
Chicago, because the latency is much lower number of microseconds than=
 direct fiber would be (little known fact about the difference between spee=
d of light in 
glass vs=2E air)=2E

These technologies are "off th=
e shelf" for fixed wireless deployment, but if I were trying to maintain or=
 build a quick replacement for existing cables using 
wireless, I suspec=
t it would largely be too little, too late=2E

For email=
, and anything else that can be stored and forwarded, you should be able to=
 zig-zag from ground to sky to ground,
but it would take specialized sof=
tware setup on the ground intermediate hops (something like bittorrent and/=
or an email
proxy I guess), and it would require the sky to be able to h=
air-pin ground-to-ground=2E  So, a bit of work, but hopefully is
softwar=
e-only fix=2E

For instance:  Ground-east-1 <-> sky-to-the-west=
 <-> ground-middle <-> sky-more-to-the-west <-> internet-=
ground-station-to-the-west
And maybe it is not directly due west due to =
orbital mechanics, but I think you get the idea=2E

Latency would be =
in minutes or maybe hours, but that is still a lot better than nothing=2E
Thanks,
Ben

-- 
Ben Gree=
ar <greearb@candelatech=2Ecom>
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www=2Ecandelatech=2Ecom
S=
tarlink mailing list
Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbl=
oat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink
--
Sent fro= m my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
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