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boundary="Apple-Mail=_787BC09C-4802-46B0-8543-87FE967FE223"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7e8036ae-0805-4c25-2cf2-08db41e6ffca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Apr 2023 21:34:19.2733 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5adoXf3uPJJdx2UD2Cn73Dl3IvJ7TSpkmeMN+KRIhZpRWZzOptn6IoOwN8khCePB6Mz5IJBiCGc71TJCoFhwpzGk1NoutO5Y6Cbbl2EnLqk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ2PR12MB8737 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 25, Issue 28 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 21:34:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_787BC09C-4802-46B0-8543-87FE967FE223 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5FA9BCF5-430E-4F2A-8791-C4EF3FFB81DB" --Apple-Mail=_5FA9BCF5-430E-4F2A-8791-C4EF3FFB81DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Friends, As I follow the discussion of putting computers on satellite, I can = understand the attraction if I apply the discussion with a satellite and = server above my location, suspended by a skyhook. The geometry is very = easy (some variations of a triangle). However, with an LEO satellite (or = MEO), most of the time the server is not overhead, it is hidden by the = horizon. Have I missed comments (or naively not understood comments) about how = the solutions work when the server is not overhead? I wanted to hear = about data locality and how the desired behavior varies according to the = position of the server. Does some of the proposed edge computing imply = (or assume) the data is needed on many satellites so that there is = always a server overhead with the needed data? (Then we have lots of = data synchronization challenges.) Clearly, this suggests there is a = scaling problem for edge computing solutions because for a single = server, most of the time the computer is not at the edge near me. What am I missing? Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Apr 20, 2023, at 2:24 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Well, O3b MPower (MEO satellites) is offering independent one hop > dedicated access to the (Microsoft Azure) cloud as "killer > application". If the cloud is on the satellite, half-hop. >=20 > Starlink GWs are near Google Cloud datacenters. >=20 > Blue Origin is on the mission to move Amazon Cloud to orbit, > eventually, maybe, leaving the Earth as a garden to enjoy, without any > industry on the surface (in a century, maybe). Kuiper will offer one > hop access to Amazon Cloud, then half-hop. >=20 > What seems a crazy idea today will be eventually implemented later, > like Starlink (Teledesic failed, fingers crossed Starlink does not go > bankrupt, although I would expect it be saved by Department of > Defense, as Iridium was saved). >=20 > As we were discussing recently, maybe starting with anycast DNS > servers on satellites is a first step to consider, before embarking > any other type of cloud servers. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 >> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 04:33:00 +0000 >> From: Ulrich Speidel >> To: "tom@evslin.com" , 'Michael Richardson' >> , 'starlink' , >> "e-impact@ietf.org" >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in >> space) >> Message-ID: >> = >>=20 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252" >>=20 >> Where do I even start? The lack of substantial bandwidth between = space and >> ground? The extra latency between ground and space compared to = terrestrial >> cloud, especially as terrestrial cloud edge can move much closer to >> customers when space can't? The fact that every LEO satellite is both = a few >> 100 km from every customer and out of the customer's range depending = on when >> you look? That low temperatures in space don't mean superconductive = chips >> that produce zero heat, and that that heat is difficult to get rid of = in >> space? That generating power in space is orders of magnitude more = expensive >> than on the ground? >>=20 >> Just because Starlink can provide a service somewhere between DSL and = low to >> medium grade fibre to a few million around the globe it's not "done". = Even >> with 10x the number of satellites and a couple of times the current = capacity >> per satellite, Starlink isn't going to supply more than a couple of = 100 >> million at best, and that's not even accounting for growth in demand = from >> IOT... >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >>=20 >> School of Computer Science >>=20 >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >> Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 >>=20 >> The University of Auckland >> ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >> **************************************************************** > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_5FA9BCF5-430E-4F2A-8791-C4EF3FFB81DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Friends,
As I follow the discussion of putting = computers on satellite, I can understand the attraction if I apply the = discussion with a satellite and server above my location, suspended by a = skyhook. The geometry is very easy (some variations of a triangle). = However, with an LEO satellite (or MEO), most of the time the server is = not overhead, it is hidden by the horizon. 

Have I missed comments (or naively not = understood comments) about how the solutions work when the server is not = overhead? I wanted to hear about data locality and how the desired = behavior varies according to the position of the server. Does some of = the proposed edge computing imply (or assume) the data is needed on many = satellites so that there is always a server overhead with the needed = data? (Then we have lots of data synchronization challenges.) Clearly, = this suggests there is a scaling problem for edge computing solutions = because for a single server, most of the time the computer is not at the = edge near me.

What am I missing?

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Apr 20, 2023, at 2:24 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via = Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Well, = O3b MPower (MEO satellites) is offering independent one hop
dedicated access to the (Microsoft Azure) cloud as "killer
application". If the cloud is on the satellite, half-hop.

Starlink GWs are near Google Cloud = datacenters.

Blue Origin is on the mission = to move Amazon Cloud to orbit,
eventually, maybe, leaving = the Earth as a garden to enjoy, without any
industry on = the surface (in a century, maybe). Kuiper will offer one
hop= access to Amazon Cloud, then half-hop.

What = seems a crazy idea today will be eventually implemented later,
like Starlink (Teledesic failed, fingers crossed Starlink = does not go
bankrupt, although I would expect it be saved = by Department of
Defense, as Iridium was saved).

As we were discussing recently, maybe starting = with anycast DNS
servers on satellites is a first step to = consider, before embarking
any other type of cloud = servers.

Regards,

David

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 04:33:00 +0000
From: = Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>
To: "tom@evslin.com" <tom@evslin.com>, = 'Michael Richardson'
<mcr@sandelman.ca>, = 'starlink' <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"e-impact@ietf.org" = <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re:  fiber IXPs in
= space)
Message-ID:
<SY4PR01MB697983BB5DEB1B2AA0B2690BCE639@SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.p= rod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: = text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252"

Where = do I even start? The lack of substantial bandwidth between space and
ground? The extra latency between ground and space compared = to terrestrial
cloud, especially as terrestrial cloud edge = can move much closer to
customers when space can't? The = fact that every LEO satellite is both a few
100 km from = every customer and out of the customer's range depending on when
you look? That low temperatures in space don't mean = superconductive chips
that produce zero heat, and that = that heat is difficult to get rid of in
space? That = generating power in space is orders of magnitude more expensive
than on the ground?

Just because = Starlink can provide a service somewhere between DSL and low to
medium grade fibre to a few million around the globe it's not = "done". Even
with 10x the number of satellites and a = couple of times the current capacity
per satellite, = Starlink isn't going to supply more than a couple of 100
million at best, and that's not even accounting for growth in = demand from
IOT...

--

***************************************************************= *
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School = of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City = Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz<mailto:ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
***************************************************************= *
_______________________________________________Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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