From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E8B87069EF for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2025 08:04:18 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1759125858; x=1759730658; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=zmYC2VO7O2JAvO2gi0JFJvik/s7cLW66A/cgWZrcs8s=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=JlkIhvutKdPPK4Wh5CUSeuBcDwdBU/lpQaT9ySkGFFTtqOUG5Kk0snSMlZ4VnEfq FMznwb6U6Tqm5AIjVdGwbJj0Wm5YZ/C8JE4cUQzNH7evqFVMZSp/iwsVWhyThyGsD 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max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: SCONE, bandwidth indeterminacy and network to host signals (was Re: Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Michael, > On 29. Sep 2025, at 00:57, Michael Richardson via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > The point of SCONE is allow end ("terminals") to better select (video) > bandwidths that are going to be more sustainable. It's definitely = driven by > 3GPP (LTE) operators so far. =20 Mmmh, so the idea is to make QUIC all encrypted so no network entity can = play nasty games, but now the makers of QUIC accommodate exactly such a = party with a rationale not really aligned with that of the end users... = Color me not surprised... > I give it a 40% chance of getting usefully > deployed before the need is overtaken by other events. Let's see. > The promise is that 3GPP operators won't have to do expensive DPI = anymore. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell... >=20 > It's true the the 3GPP people have a long-standing habit of doing = often > useless DPI, including ack pacing, ack-proxying, = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_pacing >=20 > While I'm definitely in the smart-end-point, dumb-network camp, Glad we agree. > I also see that the lack of useful end-host<->network relationship/API = has > resulted in our inability to offer new kinds of services. Not sure we need "new kinds of services"... > (Ironically: "5G" operators need this more than anyone else. The = ill-fated > IETF APN BOF/WG was after that. Kinda. But not everyone knew that) Intrigued, will need to follow that bread crumb in due time, thanks or = the pointer. >=20 > I've often wanted a "less than best effort" service (as much as that's = a > terrible term), which would allow me to purchase unused bandwidth at = low-peak > times in order to do bulk data movement. I'd often be happy to do = this in a > store-and-forward fashion. (Yes, I used to live on UUCP!) SCONE is not going to give you that though... for that you need = reasonably timely information about the actual capacity usage, not some = policy decision how much capacity someone along the path is willing to = assign to your X-tuple, no? >=20 > That's what we should be creating for space use; my understanding is = that > Bundle Protocol tries to be that, but that many think it is = un-deploybale. > (I haven't an opinion myself) All of this is plenty ambitious, I wonder whether there are not "good = enough solutions" available that are deployable earlier? >=20 > I see no reason why any streaming service has to be live in the same = way that > a video conference needs to be. =20 That is a policy/opnion question. I tend to share your position, but I = am aware that this is not something that has an objective veridical = answer, as it ties into the question of priority and (subjective) = importance. > Even people watching a "live" football game > would probably be happy with a feed that was 3-5 minutes behind, if it = meant > they never stalled. Again, I tend to agree, BUT people over here notice on big events if the = neighbours start cheering (or gnashing their teeth) well before they see = the relevant play themselves, and trade magazines publish measurements = of relative delays of common distribution methods for live sport events. And "never stall" is only going to work for a pretty lax definition of = "never" ;) >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net