From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D1A83B29D for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id t5so12453349pfg.4 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZkEpr9+4AWMYoaRaoa1GARBxOsF6QHIIm+l+1ExcVGE=; b=JiCMZWQJQFOsVWnlQZqJKsuzODLMfpbgp7g+n4ZrCU1LSAMfKaI3LcyeKqj7soO49e t1K3UXbuD6GqeqVieCmRANgKF3Z8YjNyhLPjX9QlNk0+IUmA8zXgMiGRQONrrG4wlfB3 xTWqJwzL4Dj4B1oH4ErALJ8eFjg8Po+ntE+bEcf5pYfJucEEvtVMOhNgdVCbXZZcmkO9 ZAzzXsMMHfaCEDanI+92OEAlxo5pMmP0/xNNVKvYRZw+qHaJVZ3kFXItinDHMvmJgiRn 5VI2msM3HNLOSFNdtFtHogIkoRHJxX044wYtniAQVkUCGiwj3Ooxdu4VoOD5Qw6zVGIs wIgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZkEpr9+4AWMYoaRaoa1GARBxOsF6QHIIm+l+1ExcVGE=; b=zxBq4O/xfeU6QkYXcs7663IwqEvUxXwdgUUtcmeVnGuZD2zFAezXnvkAPmEcj5013R ubBnu9QEYpZrBSlsbces54uMtjE8qHkXeQGKQa1aJxas5mw3SSG7AmJly9wxC0TC9xky iP7NlxzMAvgCGPNeeAg0ejY6vP8wfc7/YaywBvUv8RvNawrXKsazZ/BvWtlL7SdPBT+p jpYpU/uYSJKJlRdsysX/0usmUMN+uF9RZqqLotRD+M3EPruaunu7cy/LCFFPrjlZ1S4q 4Hh7mo/jQv/1y498GvMunHKuppZ1wVEiBct3uvzn6ZgiQoiS/cxiCjFD8lgaYkMFPnzJ 8SdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jL2KLseMYaqCYGsUzcfQ0ne9HecC5tmX3C8rnt3+jj4zbxq2j 3RitBQxDWNqCHT0z3tO93gA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiy+cEC12Q1rMqPSo3TR26OmMI8lyctmggwzeTlbbvHxmlOrF3LlmgmR9Dj77KcWooCY+w/A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a1d:b0:4f6:5051:6183 with SMTP id p29-20020a056a000a1d00b004f650516183mr16681939pfh.42.1647726140192; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([8.45.41.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f21-20020a056a0022d500b004f7a420c330sm15141275pfj.12.2022.03.19.14.42.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Omer Shapira Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_07D0F6E6-147A-46F1-8D4E-497C489D352E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20220302200531.GB6564@mail.taht.net> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Michael Richardson References: <20ba01d82e63$67eac9f0$37c05dd0$@evslin.com> <22796.1646250926@localhost> <20220302200531.GB6564@mail.taht.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Subject: Re: [Starlink] Hello List X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:42:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_07D0F6E6-147A-46F1-8D4E-497C489D352E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 2, 2022, at 12:05 PM, Dave T=C3=A4ht = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 02:55:26PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote: >>=20 >> > wrote: >>> need to prosper in the hybrid digital world. As all of you know, QoS = is much >>> more than up and downlink speed and tough-to-quantify jitter is a = huge part >>> of it. My measurement tool zoomready (at freecheckip.com = >>> > and = https://github.com/tevslin/zoomready = ) makes >>> a more or less continuous measurement of jitter but is quite crude; = so >>=20 >> I think that Apple/Stuart did a good job inverting the jitter metric, = and calling it >> Rounds/Revolutions per Minute. I suggest doing the same in your = tool. >=20 > Except it's NOT a jitter metric. It is a latency under load metric = primarily aime > at testing in-band (http 2.0 or quic) AQM latency. Most of our other = tests > to date have a tendency to favor FQ measurements.=20 Thanks Dave, FWIW, the RPM metric is outlined in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-responsiveness/=20 >=20 > Certainly jitter can be pulled out of detailed measurements using some > of the proposed methodologies. See the rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net = list > an archives for more details. >=20 > We have a regular meeting on implementations and new data > at 10AM PDT tuesdays if anyone would like to join.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> -- >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = --Apple-Mail=_07D0F6E6-147A-46F1-8D4E-497C489D352E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 2, 2022, at 12:05 PM, Dave T=C3=A4ht <davet@teklibre.net> = wrote:


On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 02:55:26PM -0500, Michael Richardson = wrote:

<tom@evslin.com> wrote:
need to prosper in the hybrid digital world. As = all of you know, QoS is much
more than up and downlink = speed and tough-to-quantify jitter is a huge part
of it. = My measurement tool zoomready (at freecheckip.com
<http://freecheckip.com/>  and  https://github.com/tevslin/zoomready) makes
a= more or less continuous measurement of jitter but is quite crude; so

I think that Apple/Stuart did a = good job inverting the jitter metric, and calling it
Rounds/Revolutions per Minute.  I suggest doing the same = in your tool.

Except it's NOT a jitter metric. It is a latency under load = metric primarily aime
at testing in-band (http 2.0 or quic) AQM latency. Most of = our other tests
to date have a tendency to favor FQ measurements. 

Thanks = Dave,



Certainly jitter can be pulled out of detailed measurements = using some
of the = proposed methodologies. See the rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net list
an archives for more = details.

We have a = regular meeting on implementations and new data
at 10AM PDT tuesdays if anyone = would like to join. 




--
] =             &n= bsp; Never tell me the odds! =             &n= bsp;   | ipv6 mesh networks [
] =   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =        |    IoT = architect   [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca =  http://www.sandelman.ca/ =        |   ruby on rails =    [




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