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[99.95.167.128]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-7b0c9ff848bsm10132557b3a.29.2025.11.09.20.48.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Nov 2025 20:48:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.300.11\)) From: Jim Forster In-Reply-To: <93519830-549F-459A-A737-792F18F3241C@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2025 20:48:38 -0800 Cc: J Pan , dan , Frantisek Borsik , Cake List , bloat , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, libreqos , l4s-discuss@ietf.org, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9390D9DA-3C77-429F-A41D-E0FECD52FF06@connectivitycap.com> <2036296F-1567-4B66-BD8C-3AB49EBD5AA3@connectivitycap.com> <3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> <93519830-549F-459A-A737-792F18F3241C@gmx.de> To: Sebastian Moeller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.300.11) Message-ID-Hash: 4EWVNCJ2NKR7F5IJ2BJIHTEQWK2PW5JE X-Message-ID-Hash: 4EWVNCJ2NKR7F5IJ2BJIHTEQWK2PW5JE X-MailFrom: jim@connectivitycap.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On Nov 8, 2025, at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >=20 > As a market realist (that is someone who accepts efficient market when = he sees them, but does not naive believe in the fairy tales of the = invisible hand of the market) I think that we would be often much better = off with a competently managed/regulated monopoly than with duo- to = oligopolies that are treated as if they were efficient markets... = Infrastructure (and at least access networks are at least = infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not something where the free market = typically excels at. Yeah, I also don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s an efficient, fair, = market here that gets us what we w. In some ways, the Digital Divide is = an expected outcome of capital allocation decisions by deregulated = companies in a sector that has economies of scale and network effects. At the same time, a "competently managed/regulated monopoly=E2=80=9D may = be as uncommon as Homo Economicus sitings are. Which example can you = cite? NZ? UK? SE? And have they transitioned smoothly to new technology = that would diminish the value of their existing infrastructure? =20 I recall that in the US prior to the .com boom, the telco=E2=80=99s idea = of broadband was ISDN or maybe DSL or SMDS. They wrote many papers, had = lots of trials, but did not aggressively do broadband, 'Everyone = knew=E2=80=99 that the cablecos=E2=80=99 HFC would never work, and that = they could not do digital and certainly not voice, HFC worked, and = DOCSIS was a big success. That pressured the telcos to start actually = deploying DSL, but it was too late, and the cablecos have dominated US = broadband for a couple of decades.=20 Jim >=20