From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4D413CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:43:27 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1678902202; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=aZIwjuZVq3zDwlutQY0s+bVUdofoMnQe83t7msl81UY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=fL+y+EKDZ5sE3jRng+6+RXrAaGaxV5cXGTi82fLmUGN4EbO64ERiU9TIazfy9oaQV 1zZdHaxSS4fXJ/1Z9r6OezwUvZKtyV+f1OkwJCiTuv8qGtNhjhmJPmHXnXToxBfg3c 8VCg6q79sZE/fgDt+8hbFikI8Tec0CkPzoIvISn0Ud5S4VS0Xl6Pcd70LBeZmmqPB2 pedUtxTpoof5NbNPgVotmsmHTjD2yUxwGo4sug3GynA/6t+PLSq5q6Nu7f37O0AQfK Ht/P/f62gUXfVPSxMo2M6PyXcATsfri3a55w8MLov7zm4Yci3XsXEmIaTxFLXJlHEI VnFHekXvCYprg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MkHMZ-1qN9V524Az-00keLv; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:43:22 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:43:21 +0100 Cc: Bruce Perens , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , dan , libreqos , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> To: rjmcmahon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:T7aplJ+wquRaUJJkMGXWWa3Q2BpI9NSDAPljTkLuMy9NGrnImgx znO5j4CyCJGqPOoVngp6vD1iTa4BKtBwqUdwnRpqgoLEc/Hs5qmb2s8aKJMcY2QLkeTJ35e 8qjn2WODRkTJwNZbUEdwPzyeFDzzIuwsBsbUMtnp67HWfqRBYKBlk+gZ640QkTXwKvFh3/5 NCLX72CxE2Jro2n0CjliA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:5djIFb+H7dY=;y17Xe3FbmN+Wtd0bkbss9uJdG9B LedENcKsJVph0QJfWq6mIOYmJFqKgzk5z2ildG8BoSfBdjt7Sy2p6LfzaJHicCX2PIThoyL8U +SPPNmF5K9+wBDFVxjexsB2USpurCojjtsrp0QtIFcKp2Hl62iJvCR9g4IXLlFmr40J3SCf9X xf4vPCutyXjnySD6XJOsAmwuedqe/NniZkNhz0IZLusRb1SLUeMTHBkQdW3+rojEokD038Vz/ zU7PtX956+DErNGZnUOd17b7jyM7ld6MGr9EMA+gjrvBuNTe6F+xppTt6i+aJtver4E+WoGhX 0t/o6V/kQFbwOQdO0gZhMAVMjRE1OUkwZ+gm26+PRQh1/x36Gu6KsmaD7i8KxomrZHN2qrl6Q 3izCq8QcRbpVT8Bc9VabNPYZRcZr1B7aNeCy3UheZCd7EQsPUXTI+X6ZzD9vpav4+dII1hfyb HYtIaA4GtbHZkJP3sO1VfLSNJXrjRS7u02cZc6LlQWeiRqa/ZlJcdbFgZfb0xCJm8Uj68B8dj pwTZXLofNZEmD91LbFLkKNM6NodBIdkb0xmMYK0uLIPs7KH2ijWwo2cHd0iLSUJokqrAl1mjk Bxu+EnKZcJuU6yV5HpAzMcn7+bgKZ+wSgNOc+qFwZ18Ul/1VDVCGjc2R+8haSNt4yacwNxSBC oxW4M5IJ/0KnQvoHHnSk9FNpRU2DYtsq5OzgpepDmZ7TGMEmfQe5Spfo8SR2mdo8wktlYyGoi xJrQRaNCh//ZsMmA9IgI34y5nEs0Js1GNZwtkFi/MRp7MEl8VT41dvv7788c4A7qMfsk9Q35W cwTTMrzCgwIYTsstOmM+i218+qf0dNI+2XpEVchumH2oz26drLkxvnPeOBuAkPlOOVpNt/hzU LyTSl2ndi8GPI3/49IA8jWeW8bQzTsHULbCtZLnZWpIyh+b5xw8PiNvBLfMM1Tiua+zDDHSeK wlUdJHg6TKls4qpETBzUDAgIyZk= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:43:28 -0000 Hi Bob, I like your design sketch and the ideas behind it. > On Mar 15, 2023, at 18:32, rjmcmahon via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very = low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to = a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers = per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem Maybe design this to be dual band from the start to avoid the = up/down "tdm" approach we currently use? Better yet go full duplex, = which might be an option if we get enough radios that not much = beamforming/MIMO is necessary? I obviously lack deep enough = understanf=3Ddingwhether this makes any sense or is just buzzword bingo = from my side :) >=20 > There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates = combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the = probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't = high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog = park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block = to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation = systems, etc. >=20 > The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that = and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the = RRH too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better = than AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. = Congestion? Add a zero (or multiple by 10) I am weary of this kind of trust in continuous exponential = growth... at one point we reach a limit and will need to figure out how = to deal with congestion again, so why drop this capability on the way? = The nice thing about AQMs is if there is no queue build up these = basically do nothing... (might need some design changes to optimize an = AQM to be as cheap as possible for the uncontended case)... > Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero = engineering resources assigned. >=20 > Bob >> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon >> wrote: >>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has >>> to halt. >> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >> room. > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat