From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 302F13CB41; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D788C1B326; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:57:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com D788C1B326 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1679792271; bh=Y3/s95eSNDuPKEJG6yBO1nyb7KowyRlQGuaqDGW9UZg=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=a1gBuXquGH2htIvVz8vgDeZcxapFco1je29oyuxb2/tNJzPZecwUutCS3t7lHUv/I onWtAqqOSjalLtcc5qfOmdF5tSJTylGHp9DqjotWxqEn/+Ygdiyymerfb1RyyXpr0l rRSiciP/Sgl3awST6Rokw6M+uQaISokf/Q4NXeDg= In-Reply-To: <11pp1noo-5472-1n15-24ro-ross90rr195n@ynat.uz> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <0551d5fe-e1be-48c8-be36-c4800a12e5de@rjmcmahon.com> <8f7d92bd-3b35-4726-b733-978b322713ad@rjmcmahon.com> <11pp1noo-5472-1n15-24ro-ross90rr195n@ynat.uz> X-Referenced-Uid: 00010130567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----AKF67UZ2UXH2QPTRYHKDYQVI0QF0R4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:57:50 -0700 To: David Lang CC: dan ,Rpm , Frantisek Borsik , Bruce Perens , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 00:57:52 -0000 ------AKF67UZ2UXH2QPTRYHKDYQVI0QF0R4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sure, this isn't about peering=2E It's about treating last mile infrastruct= ure as critical infrastructure and paying those who work on it, construct i= t, maintain it, manage it, to meet high standards like we try to do for hos= pitals and water supplies=2E =E2=81=A3Peering, ad insertions, etc=2E are = important but not relevant to this analysis unless I'm missing something=2E= Bob On Mar 25, 2023, 5:28 PM, at 5:28 PM, David Lang w= rote: >No, the primary cost (other than laying the fiber) is in the >electr= onics to >route the packets around once they leave the optics, and the ups= tream >bandwith >and peering to other ISPs=2E > >laying the fiber is expen= sive, optics are trivially cheap in >comparison, but >while the theoretica= l bandwidth of the fiber is huge, that's only for >the one >hop, once you = get past that hop and have to deal with the aggregate >bandwidth of >multi= ple endpoints, something has to give=2E > >David Lang > >On Sat, 25 Mar 202= 3, Robert McMahon wrote: > >> The primary cost is the optics=2E That's why = they're p in sfp and pay >go >> >> Bob >> >> On Mar 25, 2023, 4:35 PM, at 4= :35 PM, David Lang >wrote: >>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Rober= t McMahon via Bloat wrote: >>> >>>> The fiber has basically infinite capaci= ty=2E >>> >>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pa= y for >>> equipment >>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty'= starts to run >out >>> really >>> fast=2E >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> >----= -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>= > _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>= > Bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/lis= tinfo/bloat >> ------AKF67UZ2UXH2QPTRYHKDYQVI0QF0R4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure, this i= sn't about peering=2E It's about treating last mile infrastructure as criti= cal infrastructure and paying those who work on it, construct it, maintain = it, manage it, to meet high standards like we try to do for hospitals and w= ater supplies=2E

Pee= ring, ad insertions, etc=2E are important but not relevant to this analysis= unless I'm missing something=2E

Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 5:28 PM, David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote: 
No, the primary cost (other than laying the fiber) is in the electronics =
to 
route the packets around once they leave the optics, and the upstrea=
m bandwith 
and peering to other ISPs=2E

laying the fiber is expe=
nsive, optics are trivially cheap in comparison, but 
while the theoreti=
cal bandwidth of the fiber is huge, that's only for the one 
hop, once y=
ou get past that hop and have to deal with the aggregate bandwidth of 
m=
ultiple endpoints, something has to give=2E

David Lang

On Sat=
, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:

 The primary cost is the optics=2E That's why they're p i=
n sfp and pay go

 Bob

 On Mar 25, 2023, 4:35 PM, at 4:35 PM, =
David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
 On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
 The fiber has basica=
lly infinite capacity=2E

 in theory, but once you start=
 aggregating it and having to pay for
 equipment
 that can handle the=
 rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out
 really
 fast=2E
 David Lang




 Bloat mailing list
 Bloat@=
lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat

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