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Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 12:12:15 -0000 --------------VyEb2lkRqChjuFqFV3Xw7f3K Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that gamer experience doing simple (over-simple) tests with CAKE is= a booby-trap. This discussion suggests that the real performance of their = link is horrid, and that they turn off CAKE to get what they think is full = performance... but isn't. https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/174k0ko/low_latency_gaming= _and_bufferbloat/#:~:text=3DIf%20there's%20any%20chance%20that,out%20any%20= intermittent%20latency%20spikes. (I used to work for World Gaming, and follow the game commentators more th= at I do now) --dave On 2024-05-06 07:25, Rich Brown via Starlink wrote: Hi Gene, I've been vacillating on whether to send this note, but have decided to pul= l the trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie Downer" nature of thi= s message. I also apologize for any errors, omissions, or over-simplificati= ons of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. Corrections welcome. Rich ------ If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to bufferbloat, we = should know some of the "objections" we'll run up against. Even though ther= e's terrific technical data to back it up, people seem especially resistant= to thinking that bufferbloat might affect their network, even when they're= seeing problems that sound exactly like bufferbloat symptoms. But first, s= ome history: The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in 2011 [1]= couldn't believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the time, it see= med incredible (that is "not credible" =3D=3D impossible) that something co= uld induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network connection. He call= ed in favors from technical contacts at his ISP and at Bell Labs who went o= ver everything with a fine-toothed comb. It was all exactly as spec'd. But = he still had the latency. This led Jim and Dave T=C3=A4ht to start the investigation into the phenome= non known today as "bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that comes from = a router or other network equipment buffering too much data. Over several y= ears, a group of smart people made huge improvements: fq_codel was released= 14 May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated into the Linux kernel shortly afterwa= rd. CAKE came in 2015, and the fixes that minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arr= ived in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived to handle varying speed ISP= links. All these techniques work great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was qui= te usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel on my OpenWrt router allowed= me to use that same 7mbps DSL line for two simultaneous zoom calls. As one of the authors of [2], I am part of the team that has tried over the= years to explain bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've spoken with vendors.= We've spent untold hours responding to posts on assorted boards and forums= with the the bufferbloat story. With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to tell the world = about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met with skepticism at = best, or stony silence. What are the objections? - This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things to be slower wh= en there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of magnitude increase in= delay.) - Besides, I'm the only one using the internet. (Except when my phone uploa= ds photos. Or my computer kicks off some automated process. Or I browse the= web. Or ...) - It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probably when somethin= g's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in the background.) - Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bogus. They artificially add l= oad, which isn't a realistic test. (...and if you actually are downloading = a file?) - Bufferbloat only happens when the network is 100% loaded. (True. But when= you open a web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the link. Is this e= nough to cause momentary lag?) - It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the internet when I'm gami= ng. (Huh?) - I have gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if you're complainin= g about "slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat in your router.) - I can't believe that router manufacturers would ever allow such a thing t= o happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.) - I mean... wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for their cust= omers? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engineering effort. = They're selling plenty of routers with decade-old software. The Boss says, = "would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably not.") - Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave crappy service? The= y're a big company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe. We have reache= d out to all the vendors. But remember they profit if you decide your netwo= rk is too slow and you upgrade to a faster device/plan.) - But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [5]) - Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". Obviously, I bought the = most expensive/best possible solution on the market (But I still have lag..= .) - You're telling me that a bunch of pointy-headed academics are smarter tha= n commercial router developers - who sold me that $300 router? (I can't bel= ieve it.) - And then you say that I should throw away that gaming router and install = some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why should I belie= ve you?) - What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me support? And how w= ill I get back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point - the first valid= point) - Aren't there any commercial solutions I can just buy? (Not at the moment.= IQrouter was a shining light here - available from Amazon, simple setup, w= orked a treat - but they have gone out of business. And of course, for the = skeptic, this is proof that the "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a solution - = it seems just like snake oil.) So... All these hurdles make it hard to convince people that bufferbloat co= uld be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves. A couple of us have reached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if they woul= d like a story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a new, faster rou= ter (or new faster ISP plan) than fix your bufferbloat. This kind of story = seemed to be straight up their alley, but we never heard back after an init= ial contact. Maybe they deserve another call... The recent latency results from Starlink give me a modicum of hope. They're= a major player. They (and their customers) can point to an order of magnit= ude reduction in latency over other solutions. It still requires enough "re= gular customers" to tell their current ISP that they are switching to Starl= ink (and spend $600 to purchase a Dishy plus $100/month) to provide a marke= t incentive. Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that things will get bett= er. We know the technology exists for people to take control of their netwo= rk and solve the problem for themselves. We can continue to respond on foru= ms where people express their dismay at the crummy performance and suggest = a solution. We can hope that a major vendor will twig to this effect and br= ing out a mass-market solution. I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intriguing. They'r= e highly motivated to make their personal networks better. And actually sol= ving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in others with the= same problem. Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this. Rich Brown [1] https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloa= t.pdf [2] https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Buf= ferbloat/ [3] https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.h= tml [4] https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate [5] https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/= #what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink > wrote: Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have control= of everything else. With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports teams train on = campus. It will be interesting to see how much improvements there can be fo= r teams to be able to training from their homes. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Life Senior Member IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, Hawaii Chapter Chair IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor eugene.chang@ieee.org m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including a= ny and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for= the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, co= pying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confident= iality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify= the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message fr= om your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not co= nstitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electro= nic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or= an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this teleco= mmunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docume= ntation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been= signed by an authorized signatory. --------------VyEb2lkRqChjuFqFV3Xw7f3K Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think that gamer experience doing simple (over-simple) tests with CAKE= is a booby-trap. This discussion suggests that the real performance of the= ir link is horrid, and that they turn off CAKE to get what they think is fu= ll performance... but isn't.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/174k0ko/low_latency_gamin= g_and_bufferbloat/#:~:text=3DIf%20there's%20any%20chance%20that,out%20any%2= 0intermittent%20latency%20spikes.

 (I used to work for World Gaming, and follow the game commentators= more that I do now)

--dave

On 2024-05-06 07:25, Rich Brown via Starlink= wrote:
Hi Gene,

I've been vacillating on whether to send this note, but hav= e decided to pull the trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie = Downer" nature of this message. I also apologize for any errors, omiss= ions, or over-simplifications of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. Corrections welcome.

Rich
------

If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to = bufferbloat, we should know some of the "objections" we'll run up= against. Even though there's terrific technical data to back it up, people= seem especially resistant to thinking that bufferbloat might affect their network, even when they're seeing problems = that sound exactly like bufferbloat symptoms. But first, some history:

The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in 2011 [1]= couldn't believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the time, it see= med incredible (that is "not credible" =3D=3D impossible) th= at something could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network connection. He called in favors from technical contacts a= t his ISP and at Bell Labs who went over everything with a fine-toothe= d comb. It was all exactly as spec'd. But he still had the latency. 
This led Jim and Dave T=C3=A4ht to start the investigation into the phenome= non known today as "bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that c= omes from a router or other network equipment buffering too much data.= Over several years, a group of smart people made huge improvements: fq_codel was released 14 May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated&n= bsp;into the Linux kernel shortly afterward. CAKE came in 2015, and the fix= es that minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrived in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorat= e [4] arrived to handle varying speed ISP links. All these techniques work great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was= quite usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel on my OpenWrt router&nbs= p;allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL line for two simultaneous zoom call= s. 

As one of the authors of [2], I am part of the team that ha= s tried over the years to explain bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've spok= en with vendors. We've spent untold hours responding to posts on assorted b= oards and forums with the the bufferbloat story. 

With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to= tell the world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met wit= h skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the objections? 

- This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things= to be slower when there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of magni= tude increase in delay.)
- Besides, I'm the only one using the internet. (Except whe= n my phone uploads photos. Or my computer kicks off some automated process.= Or I browse the web. Or ...)
- It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probab= ly when something's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in th= e background.)
- Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bogus. They ar= tificially add load, which isn't a realistic test. (...and if you actually = are downloading a file?)
- Bufferbloat only happens when the network is 100% loaded.= (True. But when you open a web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the= link. Is this enough to cause momentary lag?)
- It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the intern= et when I'm gaming. (Huh?)
- I have gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if y= ou're complaining about "slowness" you still need to rule out buf= ferbloat in your router.)
- I can't believe that router manufacturers would ever allo= w such a thing to happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.)
- I mean... wouldn't router vendors want to provide the bes= t for their customers? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engi= neering effort. They're selling plenty of routers with decade-old software.= The Boss says, "would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably not.")
- Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave cra= ppy service? They're a big company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe= . We have reached out to all the vendors. But remember they profit if you d= ecide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a faster device/plan.)
- But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. B= ut see [5])
- Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router"= . Obviously, I bought the most expensive/best possible solution on the mark= et (But I still have lag...)
- You're telling me that a bunch of pointy-headed academics= are smarter than commercial router developers - who sold me that $300 rout= er? (I can't believe it.)
- And then you say that I should throw away that gaming rou= ter and install some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is th= at? And why should I believe you?) 
- What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me su= pport? And how will I get back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point -= the first valid point)
- Aren't there any commercial solutions I can just buy? (No= t at the moment. IQrouter was a shining light here - available from Amazon,= simple setup, worked a treat - but they have gone out of business. And of = course, for the skeptic, this is proof that the "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a solution - it seems jus= t like snake oil.)

So... All these hurdles make it hard to convince people tha= t bufferbloat could be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves.

A couple of us have reached out to Consumer Reports, wonder= ing if they would like a story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a= new, faster router (or new faster ISP plan) than fix your bufferbloat. Thi= s kind of story seemed to be straight up their alley, but we never heard back after an initial contact. Maybe th= ey deserve another call...

The recent latency results from Starlink give me a modicum = of hope. They're a major player. They (and their customers) can point to an= order of magnitude reduction in latency over other solutions. It still req= uires enough "regular customers" to tell their current ISP that they are switching to Starlink (and spend $600= to purchase a Dishy plus $100/month) to provide a market incentive.

Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that thin= gs will get better. We know the technology exists for people to take contro= l of their network and solve the problem for themselves. We can continue to= respond on forums where people express their dismay at the crummy performance and suggest a solution. We can hope= that a major vendor will twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market s= olution.

I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is in= triguing. They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. = And actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in= others with the same problem. 

Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this.

Rich Brown

[2] https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_abo= ut_Bufferbloat/

On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <= ;starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wro= te:

Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have control= of everything else.

With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports= teams train on campus. It will be interesting to see how much improvements= there can be for teams to be able to training from their homes.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society= ,    
    Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.chang@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)


____________________________________=
___________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

--=20
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- =
Mark Twain

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND D= ISCLAIMER : T= his telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confiden= tial information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or discl= osure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you= have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender im= mediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This tel= ecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to condu= ct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offe= r, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication ar= e subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and ar= e not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an = authorized signatory.

--------------VyEb2lkRqChjuFqFV3Xw7f3K--