From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8548C3B29E for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [154.157.137.11]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 591068C07C5; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:34:38 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1681990486; bh=XeSIHZc3TwdohVunX+pmIa/LMNbztedZQwKYl30Q2Eo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=r73Pr5Ci5pCXp5YBSWdr4qZx0Um7ePFcOqR810sDpObeZCh0yZXHQQtfDA3XwX9sN NYH1JLWleB82nzDsGlVjWNPF0xrK0No/qsN3O1KjznHL07NBSNeT2IkeYxIE1VneDV e2uEsdTrkbBxIizXbo3iKB1R69VX3doQbz7dHm2kB6hnshFc/CPUPx7awPO7UdlHWZ nB80/riSHUCd9NiS4IiQyJg88a16Rm5uBvMLWbv/t38D4W8fFzGx3teVyJq1GmP7H5 zn0bAGzUFffgpTjHWiu/Cw/9VPOMJWcdwxjhSgpJJcCPsJpNzYp2lhLQJZ1q+yx1LZ Fek5w0B35LJgQ== Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 14:34:13 +0300 From: Mike Puchol To: Hesham ElBakoury , Nathan Owens Cc: starlink , e-impact@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: a7a7b63c-0fe2-4c96-9b2f-8687ebe34325@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="6441234b_3b4fff97_3803" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:34:47 -0000 --6441234b_3b4fff97_3803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The only way these large constellations are going to be able to realize t= he promised capacities is by jumping the THz gap and use optical space-to= -ground links. I see advances in coherent light giving gains in link budg= ets, and every time I ask someone in the =46SOC industry =E2=80=9Ccouldn=E2= =80=99t you use UV lasers=3F=E2=80=9D I get first a puzzled =E2=80=9Care = you crazy=3F=E2=80=9D look, but is sometimes=C2=A0=C2=A0followed by a =E2= =80=9Cwait=E2=80=A6 wat=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D look. Other than the inherent d= anger to humans, UV penetrates clouds nicely. I eventually see caches onboard satellites, which conform a homogeneous m= ega-cache, able to improve hit ratio by use of ISL to route traffic to th= e right nodes. You actually need this as the satellites are constantly mo= ving, so if you have to solve that problem, why not then to the whole way= and take advantage=3F Best, Mike On Apr 20, 2023 at 14:28 +0300, Nathan Owens via Starlink , wrote: > Cheap(ish) Space to Earth optical has been tested by NASA/MIT with the = T-BIRD sat -- it used 2x 100G C=46P optics and an off-the-shelf ED=46A to= send 200Gbps to a 12in telescope on earth while it was overhead. > > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink= wrote: > > > Yves Durand is the director of technology at Thales Alenia Space, t= he joint venture charged with studying the feasibility of space data cent= ers, with the goal of deploying them in the early 2030s. > > > > > > The article I sent before says: =22Durand doesn=E2=80=99t doubt the= viability of building a data center in space, and says that construction= will be =E2=80=9Cfully automated =E2=80=93 no astronauts. In fact, the p= roject involves development of special, robotic assembly technology.=E2=80= =9D A founding principle is to design a modular facility with electronic = components that can be easily transported on a reusable space shuttles. U= nlike terrestrial, fiber-based communication facilities, the data centers= in space will use optical technology.=22 > > > > > > Hesham > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 6:16 PM Vint Cerf via Starlink wrote: > > > > > O&M will be a bear > > > > > v > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starli= nk wrote: > > > > > > > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather th= an the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usu= al, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomev= slin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > =46rom: Starlink = On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM > > > > > > > To: starlink ; e-impact=40= ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: =5BStarlink=5D DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber= IXPs in space) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. > > > > > > > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the = =22first objective=22=21 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-releas= e/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, th= e joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen = by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for E= uropean Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for dat= a centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe resea= rch program. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footpr= int is becoming a major > > > > > > > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means tha= t data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponenti= al pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the = carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastruc= tures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-= based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global c= arbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possib= le to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment a= nd operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance = technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD d= emonstrator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent spa= ce-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of = their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the sco= pe of Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of= a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thu= s regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well a= s the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F > > > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F > > > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > > > > > Vint Cerf > > > > > Google, LLC > > > > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th =46loor > > > > > Reston, VA 20190 > > > > > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > until further notice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --6441234b_3b4fff97_3803 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
The only way these large constellations are going t= o be able to realize the promised capacities is by jumping the THz gap an= d use optical space-to-ground links. I see advances in coherent light giv= ing gains in link budgets, and every time I ask someone in the =46SOC ind= ustry =E2=80=9Ccouldn=E2=80=99t you use UV lasers=3F=E2=80=9D I get first= a puzzled =E2=80=9Care you crazy=3F=E2=80=9D look, but is sometimes&=231= 60;&=23160;followed by a =E2=80=9Cwait=E2=80=A6 wat=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D loo= k. Other than the inherent danger to humans, UV penetrates clouds nicely.=

I eventually see caches onboard satellites, which conform a homogeneous m= ega-cache, able to improve hit ratio by use of ISL to route traffic to th= e right nodes. You actually need this as the satellites are constantly mo= ving, so if you have to solve that problem, why not then to the whole way= and take advantage=3F

Best,

Mike
On Apr 20, 2023 at 14:28 +0300, Nat= han Owens via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
Cheap(ish) Space to Earth optical has been tested by= NASA/MIT with the T-BIRD sat -- it used 2x 100G C=46P optics and an off-= the-shelf ED=46A to send 200Gbps to a 12in telescope on earth while it wa= s overhead.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 4= :25=E2=80=AFAM Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:
Yves Durand is the director of technology at Thale= s Alenia Space, the joint venture charged with studying the feasibility o= f space data centers, with the goal of deploying them in the early 2030s.=

The article I sent before says: =22Durand doesn=E2= =80=99t doubt the viability of building a data center in space, and says = that construction will be =E2=80=9Cfully automated =E2=80=93 no astronaut= s. In fact, the project involves development of special, robotic assembly= technology.=E2=80=9D A founding principle is to design a modular facilit= y with electronic components that can be easily transported on a reusable= space shuttles. Unlike terrestrial, fiber-based communication facilities= , the data centers in space will use optical technology.=22
=

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 6:1= 6 PM Vint Cerf via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9= :13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink <s= tarlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I think spa= ce-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote a= bout that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happe= ned as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/202= 1/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: Starlink <starlink-bounc= es=40lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via St= arlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferblo= at.net>; e-impact=40ietf.org
Subject: =5BStarlink=5D DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space= )


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the =22first objec= tive=22=21

https://www.thalesgro= up.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-e= uropean-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint compan= y between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the Europea= n Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net ze= ro emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in o= rbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe research program.
Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becomin= g a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers= in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which= in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissio= ns from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be = significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data cen= ters, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrali= ty. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop = the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability= of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies c= urrently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data = centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground c= ounterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe=E2= =80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate= -friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its le= adership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly = and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
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=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloa= t.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th =46loor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



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