From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 992E43CB39 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C9C5C00CB; Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap44 ([10.202.2.94]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 Feb 2024 11:45:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=handley.org.uk; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1706892308; x= 1706978708; bh=Mh1z+D19jwBLexLf3MWbUQbXTNG6vgQenrnzfVLno64=; b=e +wDkW5UxWdgAT+ef4lXbb9Rje/PEajRs3eXrcXo0+W0FiyCGUO+AHyqVzareF3ua kmIlWJEZnu1xK6AI0GWeOq8QctfOf+E9qC9Z2phLBLnfwgBdZJ0u4sFkkFsX/gsm K9iMh2FHGlvHa/tiJozk1RQOnuScMbq6yEEEJy6o1yRHU7Pb3+vr9LwudtHQB97x 4mS3rbrPTZuzhq7NAVfUGAW1ejDm2rWHgyd9Dx5ls/ksIHrZr1HiNm5sNZNht8Rq mBX6T9j+BOiNEcKKIbcvqpSR9zf7V8wZ6eo7d5Bz5o7EiYD4YPjHKH4w8PHSCOIf XO1UDImALq2RGKB+bAdVw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1706892308; x=1706978708; bh=Mh1z+D19jwBLexLf3MWbUQbXTNG6 vgQenrnzfVLno64=; b=RqqVOFDLa5gUujM1UEtN1FwrLwKDy0BRRoSpOXBuJdG9 ChG8YbcPYX9AP7o9Ocx/zAe8FIyK+78YdN/Va5Mdyo8BQ40PUqelacNmjHSedyxt n7UNUo4n1E7OtGblmNzqWxc7EW7FKxLbFIXeMa7THTrBGl/DQcMrvzRq8k4QvQDe yrNanMSE7zmHO0Wa57KG8cRVgES8xaUrV80lJ9oi/EK6sHOHzmL1sSK2uSmFSXnN 1rNhjWIFyE2cQFLyHL8yYoDBzoUkTSco/usD2yFSs5VODJcImY0ZoXn9ywZShWPP RGUaU/UQDc32yAto96t3RPeooxzlIJplH+u41n1QfA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedugedgledtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvfevufgtsegrtderreerreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgr rhhkucfjrghnughlvgihfdcuoehmrghrkheshhgrnhgulhgvhidrohhrghdruhhkqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeiveejffeiheejhfdutdfhhfehleefteekkeffjefffeduueel veeiveelhffgieenucffohhmrghinhephigtohhmsghinhgrthhorhdrtghomhdphihouh htuhgsvgdrtghomhdpsghufhhfvghrsghlohgrthdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmrghrkheshhgrnhgulhgvhidroh hrghdruhhk X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i4d08408c:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0DBE236A0077; Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:45:08 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 16:44:47 +0000 From: "Mark Handley" To: "Spencer Sevilla" , "Dave Taht" Cc: "Dave Taht via Starlink" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=ca7fe6a0ac134b21b539bb81725bf30a Subject: Re: [Starlink] 42 petabytes/day and ... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 16:45:08 -0000 --ca7fe6a0ac134b21b539bb81725bf30a Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my original paper/video, I used NY-London as one of the key examples,= not because of my funders (the work was actually unfunded - I just did = it because I was curious), but because the only two applications I could= immediately think of that cared enough about wide-area latency to pay f= or some premium service were finance and military. I prefered not to wr= ite about the military uses, and finance routes like NY-Chicago are alre= ady covered by low-latency microwave towers. Also I'm based in London := -) Mark On Fri, 2 Feb 2024, at 3:37 PM, Spencer Sevilla via Starlink wrote: > Yeah I forget exactly where/when, but approx. five years ago there was= a LEO workshop at some big academic networking conference (maybe sigcom= m?) and I noticed that almost all the papers used NY-London latency as t= heir primary evaluation metric. One of the papers even proposed some wac= ky multi hop system using commercial planes that were likely to be relia= bly scheduled on the route. Confused the hell out of me (reading these p= apers with an eye towards rural access) until my colleague pointed out t= he likely funders of the research and their priorities =F0=9F=98=82 >=20 > On Thu, Feb 1, 2024, 22:07 Dave Taht via Starlink wrote: >> from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D39200323 >>=20 >> There were two things that fell out of reading that article for me. >>=20 >> "each laser is grossly underused on average, at 0.432% of its maximum= capacity." >>=20 >> + >>=20 >> "Brashears also said Starlink=E2=80=99s laser system was able to conn= ect two >> satellites over 5,400 kilometers (3,355 miles) apart. The link was so >> long =E2=80=9Cit cut down through the atmosphere, all the way down to= 30 >> kilometers above the surface of the Earth,=E2=80=9D he said, before t= he >> connection broke." >>=20 >> So there IS a way to achieve previously unheard of lower latencies (at >> a cost in bitrate) across starlink across their network. Two hops to >> go 10,000km. >>=20 >> I loved mark handley's original animation of how the ISL's were >> supposed to work, but given the orbits here, I kind of wish it was >> easy to plug the assumptions in and figure out what the NY -> tokoyo >> run would take in terms of hops and estimated switching overhead, >> given this distance record. >>=20 >> How much data and what kind of data would benefit from that latency >> reduction is a matter of speculation. "Buy! Sell!" between tokoyo and >> london arbitrage was one of my first speculations many years ago. >>=20 >> --=20 >> 40 years of net history, a couple songs: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 --ca7fe6a0ac134b21b539bb81725bf30a Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In my original = paper/video, I used NY-London as one of the key examples, not because of= my funders (the work was actually unfunded - I just did it because I wa= s curious), but because the only two applications I could immediately th= ink of that cared enough about wide-area latency to pay for some premium= service were finance and military.  I prefered not to write about = the military uses, and finance routes like NY-Chicago are already covere= d by low-latency microwave towers.  Also I'm based in London :-)

Mark

On Fri, 2 F= eb 2024, at 3:37 PM, Spencer Sevilla via Starlink wrote:
Yeah I f= orget exactly where/when, but approx. five years ago there was a LEO wor= kshop at some big academic networking conference (maybe sigcomm?) and I = noticed that almost all the papers used NY-London latency as their prima= ry evaluation metric. One of the papers even proposed some wacky multi h= op system using commercial planes that were likely to be reliably schedu= led on the route. Confused the hell out of me (reading these papers with= an eye towards rural access) until my colleague pointed out the likely = funders of the research and their priorities =F0=9F=98=82

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"qt-gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 1, 2024, 22:07 Dave = Taht via Starlink <= starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
from here: <= a href=3D"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D39200323" rel=3D"norefe= rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D= 39200323

There were two things that f= ell out of reading that article for me.

"= each laser is grossly underused on average, at 0.432% of its maximum cap= acity."

+

= "Brashears also said Starlink=E2=80=99s laser system was able to connect= two
satellites over 5,400 kilometers (3,355 miles) apart= . The link was so
long =E2=80=9Cit cut down through the a= tmosphere, all the way down to 30
kilometers above the su= rface of the Earth,=E2=80=9D he said, before the
connecti= on broke."

So there IS a way to achieve p= reviously unheard of lower latencies (at
a cost in bitrat= e) across starlink across their network. Two hops to
go 1= 0,000km.

I loved mark handley's original = animation of how the ISL's were
supposed to work, but giv= en the orbits  here, I kind of wish it was
easy to p= lug the assumptions in and figure out what the NY -> tokoyo
=
run would take in terms of hops and estimated switching overhead,<= br>
given this distance record.

How much data and what kind of data would benefit from that latency
reduction is a matter of speculation. "Buy! Sell!" between = tokoyo and
london arbitrage was one of my first speculati= ons many years ago.

--
40= years of net history, a couple songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
___________________= ____________________________
_________= ______________________________________
Starlink mailing li= st


<= /html> --ca7fe6a0ac134b21b539bb81725bf30a--