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Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:06:49 -0000 --------------cmgvXBjZsZHlcx0tncZSVbFd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another point they missed: on earth, we can use conductive cooling and tran= sfer the heat from the machines to a flow of air. In space, we can only us= e radiative cooling, and we need to be out of the sun to have enough temper= ature difference. --dave On 4/20/23 07:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote: The article about the ASCEND project says: "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need f= or cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A significan= t part of a data center=E2=80=99s energy use is for cooling equipment, acco= unting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low as = -292=C2=B0F (-180=C2=B0C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth=E2=80=99s= shadow." Hesham On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien > wrote: I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. = So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them. I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload: "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch)= , <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usabl= e rocket." Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amo= unt of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all g= lobal consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) i= n 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than= 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just complete= ly wrong. Daniel Schien Senior Lecturer in Computer Science Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022 bris.ac.uk/software-engineering Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bris= tol.ac.uk/booki ________________________________ From: E-impact = > on behalf of Vint Cerf > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM To: tom@evslin.com > Cc: Michael Richardson >; starlin= k >; = e-impact@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs= in space) O&M will be a bear v On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink > wrote: I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception= . Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have no= t happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/com= puting-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html -----Original Message----- From: Starlink > On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM To: starlink >; e-impact@ietf.org Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective= "! https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-= alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint company = between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Co= mmission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emi= ssion and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as= part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe research program. Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becoming = a major challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers i= n Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in = turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions= from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be sign= ificantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, = therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The = second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the requir= ed launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these sp= aceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being= developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator. This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data ce= nters would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground count= erparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe=E2=80= =99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-frie= ndly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadershi= p in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and opera= tions of large infrastructures in orbit. _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice -- E-impact mailing list E-impact@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including a= ny and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for= the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, co= pying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confident= iality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify= the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message fr= om your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not co= nstitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electro= nic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or= an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this teleco= mmunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docume= ntation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been= signed by an authorized signatory. --------------cmgvXBjZsZHlcx0tncZSVbFd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another point they missed: on earth, we can use conductive cooling and t= ransfer the heat from the machines to a flow of air.  In space, we can= only use radiative cooling, and we need to be out of the sun to have enoug= h temperature difference.

--dave

On 4/20/23 07:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starl= ink wrote:
The article about the ASCEND project says:
"Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramati= cally reduce the need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts = of energy. A significant part of a data center=E2=80=99s energy use is for = cooling equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low as -292=C2=B0F (-180=C2=B0C= ) when an orbiting object is in the Earth=E2=80=99s shadow."

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel= Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk&g= t; wrote:
I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun = some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to = go up with them. 

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. 

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (inc= luding Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory an= d launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, = this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consu= mers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be = around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than = 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completel= y wrong.


Daniel Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science

Department of Computer Science | = University of Bristol

Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022

bris.ac.uk/software-engineering=
Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merc= hant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calen= dar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki

From:= E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.n= et>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fib= er IXPs in space)
 
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Sta= rlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception= . Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have no= t happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roa= dmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Beha= lf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first obje= ctive"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-relea= se/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint company = between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Co= mmission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emi= ssion and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon = Europe research program.

Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becoming = a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers i= n Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in = turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions= from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be sign= ificantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, = therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it= is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the depl= oyment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assis= tance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data ce= nters would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground count= erparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe=E2=80= =99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could th= us regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as= the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

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David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- =
Mark Twain

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