From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com (au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com [103.96.21.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0603B2A4 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 05:11:17 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=auckland.ac.nz; s=mimecast20200506; t=1644315074; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=8yxDrdTviQrG/gOUNOx0pg9BLjFGZQW8otoLEwK/7bI=; b=dJRNDKmjZwDHt7YaON5t0WbtnTRAmTNyUfwroVsmfc2pdM4C4scWQTBze+Odyqb15EiDIu htGFzfDc8V6VQt1fWlRaDjaDfgxECNyEkrTByEVNOqTB5jljuMqZoBq2Yu9ZGmolGdVoD5 983IK41FNihMBOzbKReQO1j5PS8TJhk= Received: from AUS01-ME3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-me3aus01lp2236.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.71.236]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id au-mta-59-hzpjfnNqMrCHjuSkpy089g-1; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 21:11:12 +1100 X-MC-Unique: hzpjfnNqMrCHjuSkpy089g-1 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) by SYBPR01MB5099.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:14::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4951.17; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:11:04 +0000 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::89c1:8ca9:129a:3a84]) by SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::89c1:8ca9:129a:3a84%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4951.019; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:11:04 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:11:01 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <0d78acc3-1101-c7d2-c7a6-53158b8c1045@vdr.net> <44b2b090-457b-eb59-a75a-a0bbb0307073@candelatech.com> <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> <736pq4q3-q21n-p6rn-9391-o56qn77npn2@ynat.uz> <9383f6d3-b6e3-de25-fee0-4416bd05c030@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <7ffdb646-0d02-c1fa-6857-576c2681490c@falco.ca> <2e2c67c8-839b-e1af-5937-78dab715d482@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <8b7fd197-777d-e963-628d-4cdff7c04380@sokolov.eu.org> <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark> <6b0b3d22-f3e6-a3bd-b04c-af15e5498560@sokolov.eu.org> <07e8f287-3da1-4890-817f-4daf945c8d12@Spark> From: Ulrich Speidel In-Reply-To: <07e8f287-3da1-4890-817f-4daf945c8d12@Spark> X-ClientProxiedBy: SY6PR01CA0016.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:e8::21) To SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4d8a417f-c368-4024-65d2-08d9eaeb5089 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SYBPR01MB5099:EE_ X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="------------ZhpFTtSjaHLCNxUef0l3wxoo" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 10:11:18 -0000 --------------ZhpFTtSjaHLCNxUef0l3wxoo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered! A quick=20 back-of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times=20 beyond a Starlink LEO satellite, and with Friis propagation, that's=20 about 23 dB in terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much=20 separation as you'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise,=20 not signal ;-) Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level. Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north=20 just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are=20 other issues here also. On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote: > The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been there=20 > for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a=20 > disadvantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to=20 > using the same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starlink=20 > uses is the same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline=20 > with a Starlink satellite and the line towards the GSO arc, the=20 > satellite would kill all satellite TV in your area. > > The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect=20 > GSO operators, by not generating interference above certain power=20 > levels to or from the GSO arc. For Dishy, this means it cannot=20 > transmit anywhere between the GSO arc elevation and +18=C2=B0 (up), -18= =C2=B0=20 > (down). > > In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43=C2=B0 in elevation,= =20 > thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25=C2=B0 and 61=C2=B0 in elevation= due=20 > South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120=C2=B0= ,=20 > up to around 240=C2=B0. > > In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all=20 > the way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37=C2=B0 of visible sk= y=20 > at zenith. > > Hope this helps! > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov=20 > , wrote: >> On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote: >>> the biggest impact on Fiji and Tonga is the GSO protection, which >>> takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from East to West. >> >> Ho Mike, >> >> would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more? >> >> Thank you >> Daniel >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 The University of Auckland ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --------------ZhpFTtSjaHLCNxUef0l3wxoo Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered! A quick back-of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times beyond a Starlink LEO satellite, and with Friis propagation, that's about 23 dB in terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much separation as you'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise, not signal ;-)

Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level.

Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are other issues here also.

On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote:
=20
The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been there for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a disadvantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to using the same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starlink uses is the same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline with a Starlink satellite and the line towards the GSO arc, the satellite would kill all satellite TV in your area.

The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect GSO operators, by not generating interference above certain power levels to or from the GSO arc. For Dishy, this means it cannot transmit anywhere between the GSO arc elevation and +18=C2=B0 (up), -18=C2=B0 (down). 

In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43=C2=B0 in elevation, thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25=C2=B0 and 61= =C2=B0 in elevation due South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120=C2=B0, up to around 240=C2=B0.

In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all the way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37=C2=B0 of visible sky at zenith.

Hope this helps!

Best,

Mike
On Feb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov <daniel@sokolov.eu.org>, wrote:
On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote:
the biggest impact on Fiji and Tonga is the GSO protection, which
takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from East to West= .

Ho Mike,

would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more?

Thank you
Daniel
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--=20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz=20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************
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