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Sun, 06 Mar 2022 12:50:10 +1100 X-MC-Unique: O7xpY5i_P4-e3RfKj7G9-w-1 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) by SY6PR01MB7489.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:170::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5038.14; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 01:50:08 +0000 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c189:5c25:c4bc:24e4]) by SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c189:5c25:c4bc:24e4%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5038.026; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 01:50:08 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:50:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 To: Larry Press , David Lang Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" References: <1646351242.121623495@apps.rackspace.com> <2b2f1808-8cf7-6eae-3157-a5fc554a2424@auckland.ac.nz> <03e73122-63c3-497b-82c6-b7b7f23b627a@Spark> <3ooo342q-s937-qq3-492q-723np793qoo@ynat.uz> <7ee92a7f-ae58-5090-8ee0-32df8ec29c2b@auckland.ac.nz> <712r509p-7on6-5657-3172-n9140n9097@ynat.uz> <2a03ec91-d938-1c85-ae0d-1cd23536f497@auckland.ac.nz> From: Ulrich Speidel In-Reply-To: X-ClientProxiedBy: SYCPR01CA0024.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:31::36) To SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 97b81d9d-4902-42df-4598-08d9ff13a4e1 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SY6PR01MB7489:EE_ X-MS-Exchange-AtpMessageProperties: SA|SL X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="------------YcQd9pLu0MnvHqrfs0tjUM4I" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 01:50:15 -0000 --------------YcQd9pLu0MnvHqrfs0tjUM4I Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/03/2022 4:25 am, Larry Press wrote: > > But that's exactly the situation that would make it a party to the conf= lict and its user a=20 > target. > > How many terminals do you think they have and who -- which class of=20 > person -- do you think has them? Starlink: With the given ground station arrangement, my best guess would=20 be a few hundred. Who has them: The Ukrainian government, FAIK, exclusively= . Non-Starlink: Given that the mobile networks and fixed Internet are=20 still operational in most places, including some overrun by the=20 Russians, I'd say probably a couple of dozen million? Any mobile phone=20 with data connectivity can in principle be shared among multiple users=20 as a WiFi hotspot, as can any domestic DSL or fibre connection. I would=20 expect there to be significant moves in these networks towards backhaul=20 diversification on the provider side as well as towards mesh-ification=20 on the user side. Dishy-sized satellite TV antennas are common household items in Ukraine=20 (just have a look at Google Street View), and they have a population=20 that is by and large well educated and technically nimble and literate.=20 So I'd expect Wi-Fi mesh networks using satellite dishes for range=20 extension to become common, too. But they don't get the PR miles out of this that Starlink do. Only Saint=20 Elon does ;-) BTW: There has been a serious cyber attack on ViaSat's central and=20 eastern European KA-SAT services, likely to be connected to the war in=20 Ukraine. Collateral damage? The remote monitoring and maintenance=20 facilities on around 3,000 German wind turbines. Google translation of=20 the article in Der Spiegel is here: https://www-spiegel-de.translate.goog/netzwelt/web/viasat-satellitennetzwer= k-offenbar-gezielt-in-osteuropa-gehackt-a-afd98117-5c32-4946-ab8a-619f1e7af= 024?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&_x_tr_tl=3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den-US&_x_tr_pto=3Dwapp The case was flagged by Andreas Knopp from Bundeswehr University in=20 Munich, a well-known researcher in the satcom sector (I've met him so I=20 know he exists ;-)): https://idw--online-de.translate.goog/de/news789489?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&_x_tr_tl= =3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den-US&_x_tr_pto=3Dwapp --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --------------YcQd9pLu0MnvHqrfs0tjUM4I Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 6/03/2022 4:25 am, Larry Press wrote:
=20
> But that's exactly the situation that would make it a party to the conflict and its user a target.

How many terminals do you think they have and who -- which class of person -- do you think has them?
Starlink: With the given ground station arrangement, my best guess would be a few hundred. Who has them: The Ukrainian government, FAIK, exclusively.

Non-Starlink: Given that the mobile networks and fixed Internet are still operational in most places, including some overrun by the Russians, I'd say probably a couple of dozen million? Any mobile phone with data connectivity can in principle be shared among multiple users as a WiFi hotspot, as can any domestic DSL or fibre connection. I would expect there to be significant moves in these networks towards backhaul diversification on the provider side as well as towards mesh-ification on the user side.


Dishy-sized satellite TV antennas are common household items in Ukraine (just have a look at Google Street View), and they have a population that is by and large well educated and technically nimble and literate. So I'd expect Wi-Fi mesh networks using satellite dishes for range extension to become common, too.


But they don't get the PR miles out of this that Starlink do. Only Saint Elon does ;-)


BTW: There has been a serious cyber attack on ViaSat's central and eastern European KA-SAT services, likely to be connected to the war in Ukraine. Collateral damage? The remote monitoring and maintenance facilities on around 3,000 German wind turbines. Google translation of the article in Der Spiegel is here:


https://www-spiegel-d= e.translate.goog/netzwelt/web/viasat-satellitennetzwerk-offenbar-gezielt-in= -osteuropa-gehackt-a-afd98117-5c32-4946-ab8a-619f1e7af024?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&= ;_x_tr_tl=3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den-US&_x_tr_pto=3Dwapp


The case was flagged by Andreas Knopp from Bundeswehr University in Munich, a well-known researcher in the satcom sector (I've met him so I know he exists ;-)):


https://idw--online-de.translate.goog/de/news789= 489?_x_tr_sl=3Dde&_x_tr_tl=3Den&_x_tr_hl=3Den-US&_x_tr_pto=3Dwa= pp


-- 
******************************=
**********************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz=20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
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