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Sat, 05 Mar 2022 20:42:59 +1100 X-MC-Unique: EPLegXcUP8Ctj9j94lR9Nw-1 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) by ME1PR01MB1796.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:200:1c::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5038.14; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:42:56 +0000 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c189:5c25:c4bc:24e4]) by SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c189:5c25:c4bc:24e4%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5038.019; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:42:56 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 22:42:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu, 'David Lang' Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <1646351242.121623495@apps.rackspace.com> <2b2f1808-8cf7-6eae-3157-a5fc554a2424@auckland.ac.nz> <03e73122-63c3-497b-82c6-b7b7f23b627a@Spark> <3ooo342q-s937-qq3-492q-723np793qoo@ynat.uz> <7ee92a7f-ae58-5090-8ee0-32df8ec29c2b@auckland.ac.nz> <712r509p-7on6-5657-3172-n9140n9097@ynat.uz> <2a03ec91-d938-1c85-ae0d-1cd23536f497@auckland.ac.nz> <2DA12D3D736443699EBFD93FDC9325A2@SRA6> From: Ulrich Speidel In-Reply-To: <2DA12D3D736443699EBFD93FDC9325A2@SRA6> X-ClientProxiedBy: SYBPR01CA0130.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:5::22) To SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6616bd9f-9ef6-491a-0c18-08d9fe8c8713 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: ME1PR01MB1796:EE_ X-MS-Exchange-AtpMessageProperties: SA|SL X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: ZwpgELh1oaAozHxMtJirnt0XeVRsDATmJ9lAhXP/r/eVPfscM1/7htdirzVZLzCNOWT2sA8JTgtC3dmNvUNlH+ajF/ZPBA5/RudTixVsatIHbnv7BlE7Pzx5CtOpnXxL8xtrtnpP9vLAP3CCIBlYzyyPq55lk88OplsuuL7cjBU2AlUagWiEysYnFMt5oAK1F3kygokBoeiYOygqWLJM0BbOGrkehesTUG6lIFYqFwE/TsMvwNB41nVO8vVjyMNEx/b62w0bAIcAMMOwwmvZtr13g4VziHdeextxossDZEVVE1IMaXePhkyilF4g7t4j+3KvCdXlRih82YS7VAjqTe/90Fr9SEqxZCpaCSJ8yLtcEJ5J20QGRdptS/E2SKpxSRRn9wA99OrZkj4EHgOKMj4zSdn+G87WBlDc24gDk9P/BJQ8gOXUwVRZLR6LWJMAgDycxmGl4EVGxl/UVVwQ3BB2yV/cbNSXHcyKwx8F+DfPqJSkp580z9ELB3T6xNy/fEjVc9LBkyfhXD9WayCKpppwcVJUfrzt0ahrI/T3FcNaAB7/G0YN6C3TzdqXFcNkXlGp0P9SuQt6111T/eM4V9BxdekzOHYDJPM74Sb2nnVrpaS2WH2SY98EIPbknYOs/1M9MVFQxe87BR2bqXIGcahdCcGmJt8AjCVWnOKrQodGXSTR991OBkk5dVJKfUGYlIL6ceIHVSyPjrAiPBQ0SqlInspQAoc3dlneFQ0VNho+VmRix7XFjU7ksGn3Yc7Lzueg6gd8qxpaVOjSQOxdH3Fzq7Yi9Sp757eeJRSJuXpTiHbyxThEYr8N9nmpGGma X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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auth=pass smtp.auth=CAU17A13 smtp.mailfrom=u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: auckland.ac.nz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------LxOD07cKKgNLPJkPWWBul4it" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 09:43:03 -0000 --------------LxOD07cKKgNLPJkPWWBul4it Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/03/2022 7:38 pm, Dick Roy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On=20 > Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel > Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM > To: David Lang > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we > > won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low > > user density service. > > Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether > > you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. > > */[RR] But they are assuming a =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D channel in the ti= me domain.=C2=A0=20 > When you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create=20 > more channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up!/* > /*Taken as read - but it's beside the point. Shannon-Hartley allows you=20 to do what was proposed - turning a channel that supplies a small number=20 of users with a lot of capacity each into one that supplies a large=20 number of users with a little capacity each, and of course if you add=20 diversity (space, polarisation, ...) then this applies even more so. But=20 the point is that each communication system is designed around an=20 expectation of how many users will access it, and that you can't simply=20 take an existing technology and somehow assume that it will work with a=20 larger number of users just because it's theoretically possible.=20 Basically, you can't simply throw more dishys at the problem if you need=20 to serve more users.*/ --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --------------LxOD07cKKgNLPJkPWWBul4it Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 5/03/2022 7:38 pm, Dick Roy wrote:
=20

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferb= loat.net] On Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM
To: David Lang
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6

 

True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we

won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low

user density service.

 

Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether

you divide your channel between 1 or a million users.

[RR] But they are assuming a =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D channel in th= e time domain.  When you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create more channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up!

Taken as read - but it's beside the point. Shannon-Hartley allows you to do what was proposed - turning a channel that supplies a small number of users with a lot of capacity each into one that supplies a large number of users with a little capacity each, and of course if you add diversity (space, polarisation, ...) then this applies even more so. But the point is that each communication system is designed around an expectation of how many users will access it, and that you can't simply take an existing technology and somehow assume that it will work with a larger number of users just because it's theoretically possible. Basically, you can't simply throw more dishys at the problem if you need to serve more users.

--=20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz=20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************
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