From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52D433CB41 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 14:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 3BJJXgbJ051549 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 20:33:42 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8522B2058B2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 20:33:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D32F2058A1 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 20:33:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.11.241.37] ([10.11.241.37]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 3BJJXg76044863 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 20:33:42 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 20:33:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: fr To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CEA-Virus: SOPHOS_SAVI_ERROR_OLD_VIRUS_DATA Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 19:33:44 -0000 Sorry, I do not want to add to any vitriol on this topic.  But there is a technical aspect that might help to clarify some aspects. Le 15/12/2023 à 23:13, David Bray, PhD via Starlink a écrit : > This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt:  >>why do > you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > > As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized > for the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday. > > Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead! What do you mean by 'GPT(human)bot'? I am intrigued by many posts on many email lists.  Some of them appear to me they might be generated by GPT-like text generators. I asked a few persons around how could one identify GPT-generated text?  (for example, in the era prior to GPT it was possible to check whether a text was copy-pasted from elsewhere by simply googling it); I have not received any answer until now, but I still search for such tool.   A sort of super-gpt that would identify the gpt, or a super-intelligence to tell the artificial from natural. On another hand, google (again it!) tells that 'GPTZero' might help identifying whether or not a given text is generated by AI-like tools.  This GPTZero tells that some paragraphs from this email thread might (51%) be AI generated, whereas others 0% (not likely at all). That was my clarification. Alex > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10 PM David Lang wrote: > > I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the > discussion was on the > topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to > claiming that we > needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because > of telehealth > as well. > > I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are > compared to > in-person meetings. > > David Lang > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote: > > > There’s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO > as long as > > it isn’t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious > listserv founder > > Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via > > ground-based connections too. > > > > That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether > mental health > > services can be delivered effectively over video in general - > regardless of > > LEO or not. The concern is two fold: > > > > * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a > > patient developing a relationship with a health provider > > > > * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative > ideation. One > > might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the > evidence > > showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there’s > actually a > > continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls > prompted by the > > body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are > friend or > > foe. Since we cannot see a person’s hands and body movements we > don’t know > > if they’re coming to attack us or not. > > > > So future generations may look back and decide that with video > calls we > > were literally messing with our brains’ own natural biological > processes? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain < > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > >> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > >> > >> I've used it personally. > >> > >> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say > that women > >> have any > >> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth > >> possible. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> > >>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth > services. They > >> are > >>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most > of the > >>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction > may be. So > >>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth > doesn't work > >> over > >>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance > >> learning. > >>> > >>> > >> > https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ > >>> > >>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities > should remain > >> in > >>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back > telehealth > >> access > >>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a > >> growing > >>> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health needs. > >>> > >>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume > >> healthcare > >>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely > attractive to women. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet > >>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals > have to do > >>>> with shipping bits around? > >>>> > >>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a > way to get > >>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every > >>>> house. > >>>> > >>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that > problem were > >>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public > agencies > >>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power > plants? or > >>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual > houses for > >>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power > the larger > >>>> population areas? > >>>> > >>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past > >>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi All, > >>>>> > >>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for > electricity > >>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. > Tele-health and > >>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to > follow. > >>>>> > >>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed > up. I'm > >>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We > >> probably > >>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our > best work > >> for > >>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. > >>>>> > >>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she > was ill – no > >>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to > afford > >> proper > >>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in > childbirth. During > >> the > >>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a > sampling of > >>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 > women, 158 had > >>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists > reported, were > >>>>> third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to > see how they > >>>>> stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet, > and doing > >> all > >>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling the > >> water, > >>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the > >> shearing, > >>>>> the plowing and the picking. > >>>>> > >>>>> Because there was no electricity. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages > of satcom > >>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to > >> overcome > >>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue > of digital > >>>>>>>> divide - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>   I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise > with the goal > >> to > >>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially > >>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at > >> specifically > >>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important > factor is not > >>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal > to make a > >>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a > company because > >>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist > to service > >>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is > >> literally > >>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get > there, it > >> will > >>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>   This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs > to be a > >>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme > >> locations, > >>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. > >> Whitney). > >>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is > infrastructure > >> that > >>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. > However given > >>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the > interim > >> period. > >>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for > that from a > >>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually > >> discussion > >>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by > starlink > >> was > >>>>>>> mostly redacted. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run > between > >>>>>> houses is 'too far'? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in > cities with > >>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where > there are > >>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not > profitable enough. > >>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per > house' the cost > >>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the > majority of > >>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for > sure), but > >>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And > once you get > >>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every > town or > >>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an > >>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI > >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which > is less > >>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Lang > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink