[Starlink] starlink at sea

[Starlink] starlink at sea

[Dave Taht]

Two notes about this article

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship

1) Joy of joys they used the new ookla speedtest, which shows upload
and download latency under load.

2) They show 6 starlink terminals on one side of the ship, and 6 on
the other side (unless it's a reversed image). While I can imagine
that the downlink can manage that many terminals close by (but how?),
I find it hard to conceive that the uplinks can co-exist emitting that
much energy so few feet apart. Are modern phased arrays that good? Has
anyone experimented with how closely placed two terminals can be?



-- 
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[David Lang]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:

> 2) They show 6 starlink terminals on one side of the ship, and 6 on
> the other side (unless it's a reversed image). While I can imagine
> that the downlink can manage that many terminals close by (but how?),
> I find it hard to conceive that the uplinks can co-exist emitting that
> much energy so few feet apart. Are modern phased arrays that good? Has
> anyone experimented with how closely placed two terminals can be?

I would assume that the uplinks are multiplexed under the control of the 
satellites (possibly time-based slots, but other options are possible). In some 
cases it may be possible to reprogram one dish to use a larger share of 
available airtime, but it is much simpler to have multiple standard devices than 
modifying some to use a larger share (not to mention the potential duty cycle 
limits)

In the scale of satellite communication, the satellite can't really tell the 
difference between a few feet apart and a few hundred feet apart, the angle to 
the satellite is too small to resolve the difference.

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Gary E. Miller]

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Yo Dave!

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship


Did you notice the eye popping cost?

https://www.starlink.com/maritime

"High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
performance terminals."

I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
now
disappointed.

RGDS
GARY
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
	gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[David Lang]

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it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed for a 30 ft 
boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had talked about how this 
replaces the earlier satellite services they have had on their boats that were 
unreliable and cost >$150k/month with much better service listing for 
<$50k/month (for all their boats)

This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most boaters could 
just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out when they need it (taking 
it down when the weather is poor)

David Lang

  On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:36:02 -0700
> From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> 
> Yo Dave!
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
> Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship
>
>
> Did you notice the eye popping cost?
>
> https://www.starlink.com/maritime
>
> "High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
> sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
> performance terminals."
>
> I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
> now
> disappointed.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> 	gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
> 	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
>

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_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Gary E. Miller]

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Yo David!

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

> it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed
> for a 30 ft boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had
> talked about how this replaces the earlier satellite services they
> have had on their boats that were unreliable and cost >$150k/month
> with much better service listing for <$50k/month (for all their boats)

Yes, it compares favorably to the existing alternatives.  A mega-yauct
owner would not notice the price.

> This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most
> boaters could just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out
> when they need it (taking it down when the weather is poor)

Excapt, Starlink will not let yuo use the RV roaming plan when offshore.
The maritime plan explicitly covers open ocean.  The RV plan hardly goes
beyond the sight of land.

I imagine the main driver of the high cost is the prolem in getting
downlink stations between California and Hawaii, etc.  This will be a
real test of the sat to sat relaying.

RGDS
GARY
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
	gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[David Lang]

It's also true that SpaceX tends to set their prices to undercut the competition 
by a nice margin, rather than trying for the lowest possible price (however they 
define their competition in a particular case)

We know that their list prices for launches are far above their costs, but still 
very comfortably below competing launchers for example (they've done enough 
special deals to indicate that they are willing to go MUCH lower than list to 
win a bid, and there's no reason to think that they lose money on any launch)

unfortuantly for the more casual boater, it seems that they've decided the 
competition is the type of service they've been using on their barges. (taking 
the market from the top down). We can hope that they will add a cheaper, less 
performant tier later.

David Lang

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:59:57 -0700
> From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> 
> Yo David!
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
> David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed
>> for a 30 ft boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had
>> talked about how this replaces the earlier satellite services they
>> have had on their boats that were unreliable and cost >$150k/month
>> with much better service listing for <$50k/month (for all their boats)
>
> Yes, it compares favorably to the existing alternatives.  A mega-yauct
> owner would not notice the price.
>
>> This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most
>> boaters could just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out
>> when they need it (taking it down when the weather is poor)
>
> Excapt, Starlink will not let yuo use the RV roaming plan when offshore.
> The maritime plan explicitly covers open ocean.  The RV plan hardly goes
> beyond the sight of land.
>
> I imagine the main driver of the high cost is the prolem in getting
> downlink stations between California and Hawaii, etc.  This will be a
> real test of the sat to sat relaying.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> 	gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
> 	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
>

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Larry Press]

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<$50k/month (for all their boats)

Do they have ten ships?

 >$150k/month with much better service

Is that for uncapped service from a GEO? What speeds do they get for that? Do GEO folks like Hughes offer SLAs to business customers?

Does SES offer marine connectivity?

Russian oligarchs will be early customers.

Larry Press

________________________________
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:40 PM
To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed for a 30 ft
boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had talked about how this
replaces the earlier satellite services they have had on their boats that were
unreliable and cost >$150k/month with much better service listing for
<$50k/month (for all their boats)

This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most boaters could
just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out when they need it (taking
it down when the weather is poor)

David Lang

  On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:36:02 -0700
> From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>
> Yo Dave!
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
> Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMhpU32Mkw$
>
>
> Did you notice the eye popping cost?
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.starlink.com/maritime__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMgLmSbzsw$
>
> "High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
> sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
> performance terminals."
>
> I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
> now
> disappointed.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>        gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
>            Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
>

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[David Lang]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2022, Larry Press wrote:

> <$50k/month (for all their boats)
>
> Do they have ten ships?

I know of 7 off the top of my head, the three drone ships, the multi-purpose 
recovery ships bob and doug, they got a couple more recently(named for females, 
don't remember the names reliably), all those recovery ships on the east coast, 
so they probably have one or two on the west coast, and I don't think that 
includes the dragon recovery craft.

> >$150k/month with much better service
>
> Is that for uncapped service from a GEO? What speeds do they get for that? Do GEO folks like Hughes offer SLAs to business customers?

that was for 25G of bandwidth from the post I saw mentioned, they didn't mention 
the speed (but they did show the difference in video quality from the barges 
between the old and new)

David Lang

> Does SES offer marine connectivity?
>
> Russian oligarchs will be early customers.
>
> Larry Press
>
> ________________________________
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:40 PM
> To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>
> it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed for a 30 ft
> boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had talked about how this
> replaces the earlier satellite services they have had on their boats that were
> unreliable and cost >$150k/month with much better service listing for
> <$50k/month (for all their boats)
>
> This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most boaters could
> just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out when they need it (taking
> it down when the weather is poor)
>
> David Lang
>
>  On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:36:02 -0700
>> From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
>> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>>
>> Yo Dave!
>>
>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
>> Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMhpU32Mkw$
>>
>>
>> Did you notice the eye popping cost?
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.starlink.com/maritime__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMgLmSbzsw$
>>
>> "High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
>> sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
>> performance terminals."
>>
>> I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
>> now
>> disappointed.
>>
>> RGDS
>> GARY
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>>        gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>>
>>            Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>>    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
>>
>

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Mike Puchol]

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On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time. I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.

From the satellite side, maybe EPFD limits don’t apply over water bodies, and they can place multiple co-frequency beams onto a single cell, which would allow throughputs into multiple gigabits per second (if no other usage around of course).

I’m working on simulating ship scenarios on my tracker, along with other features.

Best,

Mike
On Jul 14, 2022, 09:00 +0200, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2022, Larry Press wrote:
>
> > <$50k/month (for all their boats)
> >
> > Do they have ten ships?
>
> I know of 7 off the top of my head, the three drone ships, the multi-purpose
> recovery ships bob and doug, they got a couple more recently(named for females,
> don't remember the names reliably), all those recovery ships on the east coast,
> so they probably have one or two on the west coast, and I don't think that
> includes the dragon recovery craft.
>
> > > $150k/month with much better service
> >
> > Is that for uncapped service from a GEO? What speeds do they get for that? Do GEO folks like Hughes offer SLAs to business customers?
>
> that was for 25G of bandwidth from the post I saw mentioned, they didn't mention
> the speed (but they did show the difference in video quality from the barges
> between the old and new)
>
> David Lang
>
> > Does SES offer marine connectivity?
> >
> > Russian oligarchs will be early customers.
> >
> > Larry Press
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:40 PM
> > To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> >
> > it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed for a 30 ft
> > boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had talked about how this
> > replaces the earlier satellite services they have had on their boats that were
> > unreliable and cost >$150k/month with much better service listing for
> > <$50k/month (for all their boats)
> >
> > This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most boaters could
> > just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out when they need it (taking
> > it down when the weather is poor)
> >
> > David Lang
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:36:02 -0700
> > > From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> > > To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> > >
> > > Yo Dave!
> > >
> > > On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
> > > Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMhpU32Mkw$
> > >
> > >
> > > Did you notice the eye popping cost?
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.starlink.com/maritime__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMgLmSbzsw$
> > >
> > > "High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
> > > sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
> > > performance terminals."
> > >
> > > I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
> > > now
> > > disappointed.
> > >
> > > RGDS
> > > GARY
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> > > gem@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> > >
> > > Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
> > > "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Mike,

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time. 

	Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?

Regards
	Sebastian


> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Mike Puchol]

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The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.

If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!

Best,

Mike
On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>
> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
>
> Regards
> Sebastian
>
>
> > I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
>

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Mike.

Thanks a lot. This is intersting.

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
> 
> The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.

	So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:

30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and 
1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
(30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)))  * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot

with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average 

1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier 

if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).


> If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!

	Please do!
Regards
	Sebastian

> 
> Best,
> 
> Mike
> On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>> 
>> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
>> 
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
>> 
>> 
>>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
>> 

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Nitinder Mohan]

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Hi Mike,

Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values. 

Thanks and Regards

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)
https://www.nitindermohan.com/

From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  

Hi Mike.

Thanks a lot. This is intersting.

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
>  
> The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.

So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:

30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and  
1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
(30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot

with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average  

1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier  

if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).


> If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!

Please do!
Regards
Sebastian

>  
> Best,
>  
> Mike
> On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>  
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>  
>>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>>  
>> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
>>  
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
>>  
>>  
>>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
>>  

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Jared Mauch]

I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:

currentCellId current_cell_id

Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.

https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py

This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.

- jared

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values. 
> 
> Thanks and Regards
> 
> Nitinder Mohan
> Technical University Munich (TUM)
> https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> 
> From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea 
> 
>> Hi Mike.
>> 
>> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.
>> 
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
>> > 
>> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.
>> 
>> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:
>> 
>> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and 
>> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
>> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot
>> 
>> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average 
>> 
>> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier 
>> 
>> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).
>> 
>> 
>> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!
>> 
>> Please do!
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
>> 
>> > 
>> > Best,
>> > 
>> > Mike
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
>> >> Hi Mike,
>> >> 
>> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>> >> 
>> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
>> >> 
>> >> Regards
>> >> Sebastian
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
>> >> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Nitinder Mohan]

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Hi Jared,

Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising!

We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling information at our end. 

Thanks and Regards

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)
https://www.nitindermohan.com/

From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Reply: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
To: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
Cc: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  

I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:  

currentCellId current_cell_id  

Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.  

https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py  

This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.  

- jared  

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:  
>  
> Hi Mike,  
>  
> Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values.  
>  
> Thanks and Regards  
>  
> Nitinder Mohan  
> Technical University Munich (TUM)  
> https://www.nitindermohan.com/  
>  
> From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>  
> Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>  
> Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16  
> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>  
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>  
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  
>  
>> Hi Mike.  
>>  
>> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.  
>>  
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:  
>> >  
>> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.  
>>  
>> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:  
>>  
>> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and  
>> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec  
>> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot  
>>  
>> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average  
>>  
>> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier  
>>  
>> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).  
>>  
>>  
>> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!  
>>  
>> Please do!  
>> Regards  
>> Sebastian  
>>  
>> >  
>> > Best,  
>> >  
>> > Mike  
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:  
>> >> Hi Mike,  
>> >>  
>> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:  
>> >>>  
>> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.  
>> >>  
>> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?  
>> >>  
>> >> Regards  
>> >> Sebastian  
>> >>  
>> >>  
>> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.  
>> >>  
>>  
>> _______________________________________________  
>> Starlink mailing list  
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net  
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink  
> _______________________________________________  
> Starlink mailing list  
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net  
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink  


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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Nitinder Mohan]

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Hi Jared,

Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID and cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See https://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27

Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand performance trends.

Thanks and Regards

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)
https://www.nitindermohan.com/

From: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
Reply: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
Date: 14. July 2022 at 15:05:42
To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  

Hi Jared,

Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising!

We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling information at our end. 

Thanks and Regards

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)
https://www.nitindermohan.com/

From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Reply: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
To: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
Cc: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  

I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:  

currentCellId current_cell_id  

Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.  

https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py  

This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.  

- jared  

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:  
>  
> Hi Mike,  
>  
> Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values.  
>  
> Thanks and Regards  
>  
> Nitinder Mohan  
> Technical University Munich (TUM)  
> https://www.nitindermohan.com/  
>  
> From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>  
> Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>  
> Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16  
> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>  
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>  
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea  
>  
>> Hi Mike.  
>>  
>> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.  
>>  
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:  
>> >  
>> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.  
>>  
>> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:  
>>  
>> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and  
>> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec  
>> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot  
>>  
>> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average  
>>  
>> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier  
>>  
>> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).  
>>  
>>  
>> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!  
>>  
>> Please do!  
>> Regards  
>> Sebastian  
>>  
>> >  
>> > Best,  
>> >  
>> > Mike  
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:  
>> >> Hi Mike,  
>> >>  
>> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:  
>> >>>  
>> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.  
>> >>  
>> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?  
>> >>  
>> >> Regards  
>> >> Sebastian  
>> >>  
>> >>  
>> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.  
>> >>  
>>  
>> _______________________________________________  
>> Starlink mailing list  
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net  
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink  
> _______________________________________________  
> Starlink mailing list  
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net  
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink  


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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Mike Puchol]

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The handovers are clear from the RF traces, but they won’t indicate per se what satellite is being used. I have a cunning plan for a rotating vertical metal plate which, given the right calculations, would block 10° of the FOV, which would allow inference of the satellite in use. There are also narrowband uplink signals that are likely used for channel sounding and basic signaling between terminal and satellite.

The other interesting observation is that the power spike (~200W for 1-2 seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these narrowband transmissions on various frequencies at once.

Best,

Mike
On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>, wrote:
> Hi Jared,
>
> Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID and cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See https://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27
>
> Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand performance trends.
>
> Thanks and Regards
>
> Nitinder Mohan
> Technical University Munich (TUM)
> https://www.nitindermohan.com/
>
> From: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> Reply: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> Date: 14. July 2022 at 15:05:42
> To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>
> > Hi Jared,
> >
> > Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising!
> >
> > We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling information at our end.
> >
> > Thanks and Regards
> >
> > Nitinder Mohan
> > Technical University Munich (TUM)
> > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> >
> > From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> > Reply: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
> > To: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> > Cc: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> >
> > > I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:
> > >
> > > currentCellId current_cell_id
> > >
> > > Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.
> > >
> > > https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py
> > >
> > > This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.
> > >
> > > - jared
> > >
> > > > On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks and Regards
> > > >
> > > > Nitinder Mohan
> > > > Technical University Munich (TUM)
> > > > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> > > >
> > > > From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > > Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> > > > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
> > > > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> > > > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Mike.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.
> > > >>
> > > >> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:
> > > >>
> > > >> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and
> > > >> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
> > > >> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot
> > > >>
> > > >> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average
> > > >>
> > > >> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier
> > > >>
> > > >> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!
> > > >>
> > > >> Please do!
> > > >> Regards
> > > >> Sebastian
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Best,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Mike
> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
> > > >> >> Hi Mike,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Regards
> > > >> >> Sebastian
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Starlink mailing list
> > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Starlink mailing list
> > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > >

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Mike,

On 14 July 2022 16:56:21 CEST, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>The handovers are clear from the RF traces, 

         Can you estimate how long a handover takes? And are these linked somehow to either the 4second or 15second intervals visible in starlink latency traces?


Regards
        Sebastian


but they won’t indicate per se what satellite is being used. I have a cunning plan for a rotating vertical metal plate which, given the right calculations, would block 10° of the FOV, which would allow inference of the satellite in use. There are also narrowband uplink signals that are likely used for channel sounding and basic signaling between terminal and satellite.
>
>The other interesting observation is that the power spike (~200W for 1-2 seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these narrowband transmissions on various frequencies at once.
>
>Best,
>
>Mike
>On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>, wrote:
>> Hi Jared,
>>
>> Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID and cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See https://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27
>>
>> Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand performance trends.
>>
>> Thanks and Regards
>>
>> Nitinder Mohan
>> Technical University Munich (TUM)
>> https://www.nitindermohan.com/
>>
>> From: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
>> Reply: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
>> Date: 14. July 2022 at 15:05:42
>> To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
>> Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>>
>> > Hi Jared,
>> >
>> > Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising!
>> >
>> > We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling information at our end.
>> >
>> > Thanks and Regards
>> >
>> > Nitinder Mohan
>> > Technical University Munich (TUM)
>> > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
>> >
>> > From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
>> > Reply: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
>> > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
>> > To: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
>> > Cc: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> > Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>> >
>> > > I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:
>> > >
>> > > currentCellId current_cell_id
>> > >
>> > > Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.
>> > >
>> > > https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py
>> > >
>> > > This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.
>> > >
>> > > - jared
>> > >
>> > > > On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Mike,
>> > > >
>> > > > Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those values.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks and Regards
>> > > >
>> > > > Nitinder Mohan
>> > > > Technical University Munich (TUM)
>> > > > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
>> > > >
>> > > > From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> > > > Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
>> > > > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
>> > > > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
>> > > > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>> > > >
>> > > >> Hi Mike.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of slots to a terminal.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodput:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively sending, and
>> > > >> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
>> > > >> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) = 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot
>> > > >>
>> > > >> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average
>> > > >>
>> > > >> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier
>> > > >>
>> > > >> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different levels of noise and what not).
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shout!
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Please do!
>> > > >> Regards
>> > > >> Sebastian
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Best,
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Mike
>> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
>> > > >> >> Hi Mike,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> > > >> >>>
>> > > >> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be interleaved in that situation?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Regards
>> > > >> >> Sebastian
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Starlink mailing list
>> > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Starlink mailing list
>> > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> > >

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Nathan Owens]

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Based on my irtt data, handover seems to be a low number of milliseconds,
perhaps 50ms at most. They do tend to switch sats every 15 seconds, based
on the data I collected when the gRPC api was still around. Not sure what
the 4 second interval is.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:28 AM Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> On 14 July 2022 16:56:21 CEST, Mike Puchol via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >The handovers are clear from the RF traces,
>
>          Can you estimate how long a handover takes? And are these linked
> somehow to either the 4second or 15second intervals visible in starlink
> latency traces?
>
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> but they won’t indicate per se what satellite is being used. I have a
> cunning plan for a rotating vertical metal plate which, given the right
> calculations, would block 10° of the FOV, which would allow inference of
> the satellite in use. There are also narrowband uplink signals that are
> likely used for channel sounding and basic signaling between terminal and
> satellite.
> >
> >The other interesting observation is that the power spike (~200W for 1-2
> seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these
> narrowband transmissions on various frequencies at once.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Mike
> >On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>, wrote:
> >> Hi Jared,
> >>
> >> Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID
> and cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See
> https://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27
> >>
> >> Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand
> performance trends.
> >>
> >> Thanks and Regards
> >>
> >> Nitinder Mohan
> >> Technical University Munich (TUM)
> >> https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> >>
> >> From: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> >> Reply: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> >> Date: 14. July 2022 at 15:05:42
> >> To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> >> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Mike
> Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> >> Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> >>
> >> > Hi Jared,
> >> >
> >> > Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising!
> >> >
> >> > We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling
> information at our end.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks and Regards
> >> >
> >> > Nitinder Mohan
> >> > Technical University Munich (TUM)
> >> > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> >> >
> >> > From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> >> > Reply: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
> >> > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
> >> > To: Nitinder Mohan <mohan@in.tum.de>
> >> > Cc: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> > Subject:  Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> >> >
> >> > > I haven’t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:
> >> > >
> >> > > currentCellId current_cell_id
> >> > >
> >> > > Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract_protoset.py
> >> > >
> >> > > This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I
> bet I can run something to pull/dump the info.
> >> > >
> >> > > - jared
> >> > >
> >> > > > On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Mike,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink
> channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected
> to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try
> to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those
> values.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks and Regards
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Nitinder Mohan
> >> > > > Technical University Munich (TUM)
> >> > > > https://www.nitindermohan.com/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> > > > Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> >> > > > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
> >> > > > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> >> > > > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> Hi Mike.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> wrote:
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at
> the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14%
> (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 meter
> apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same
> uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of
> slots to a terminal.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured
> goodput:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) = 212.73 Mb/s while actively
> sending, and
> >> > > >> 1000000µs/s / (6.7+1.1)µs = 128205.128205 slots/sec
> >> > > >> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) =
> 1659.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 = 207.41 Bytes/slot
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> 1659.27/128 = 12.96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect
> some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different
> levels of noise and what not).
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room,
> shout!
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Please do!
> >> > > >> Regards
> >> > > >> Sebastian
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Best,
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Mike
> >> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <
> moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
> >> > > >> >> Hi Mike,
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>
> >> > > >> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty
> cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a
> single uplink channel with some guard time.
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be
> interleaved in that situation?
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Regards
> >> > > >> >> Sebastian
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in
> uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> Starlink mailing list
> >> > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > Starlink mailing list
> >> > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >> > >
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Dave Taht]

I happily got my own starlink terminal last week but haven't mounted
it on my boat properly yet.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 4:15 AM Mike Puchol via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a single uplink channel with some guard time.

What happens with two terminals close together?

>I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you’d be able to push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz.

I'm not sure if these two sets of numbers line up. by a duty cycle do
you mean transmitting a burst every x ms, or x amount of energy or ?
My assumption has been that to get 30Mbps up, you were using all
channels available.

There are distinct steps in uplink bandwidth that I see in my data. I
am going to try to get the resolution below a ms after the ethernet
thingi arrives.

This assumption incidentally finally gives me a means with outboard
hardware to better apply a bufferbloat fix, being able to quickly
sense how many channels are in use could [1] feed forward into buffer
sizing in the router itself...

Are you using some sort of gnu radio for your work? There's a pretty
neat project doing 5g outboard too..

[1] but it would remain way easier for them to let me cross compile sch_cake!

>
> From the satellite side, maybe EPFD limits don’t apply over water bodies, and they can place multiple co-frequency beams onto a single cell, which would allow throughputs into multiple gigabits per second (if no other usage around of course).
>
> I’m working on simulating ship scenarios on my tracker, along with other features.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Jul 14, 2022, 09:00 +0200, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2022, Larry Press wrote:
>
> <$50k/month (for all their boats)
>
> Do they have ten ships?
>
>
> I know of 7 off the top of my head, the three drone ships, the multi-purpose
> recovery ships bob and doug, they got a couple more recently(named for females,
> don't remember the names reliably), all those recovery ships on the east coast,
> so they probably have one or two on the west coast, and I don't think that
> includes the dragon recovery craft.
>
> $150k/month with much better service
>
>
> Is that for uncapped service from a GEO? What speeds do they get for that? Do GEO folks like Hughes offer SLAs to business customers?
>
>
> that was for 25G of bandwidth from the post I saw mentioned, they didn't mention
> the speed (but they did show the difference in video quality from the barges
> between the old and new)
>
> David Lang
>
> Does SES offer marine connectivity?
>
> Russian oligarchs will be early customers.
>
> Larry Press
>
> ________________________________
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:40 PM
> To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>
> it all depends on what you are comparing it to. This isn't designed for a 30 ft
> boat, but rather for commercial operations. SpaceX had talked about how this
> replaces the earlier satellite services they have had on their boats that were
> unreliable and cost >$150k/month with much better service listing for
> <$50k/month (for all their boats)
>
> This is designed to be an all-weather allways-on service, most boaters could
> just use a standard starlink RV setup and put it out when they need it (taking
> it down when the weather is poor)
>
> David Lang
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Gary E. Miller via Starlink wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:36:02 -0700
> From: Gary E. Miller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea
>
> Yo Dave!
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:43 -0700
> Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022/06/28/i-tried-elon-musks-starlink-internet-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMhpU32Mkw$
>
>
>
> Did you notice the eye popping cost?
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.starlink.com/maritime__;!!P7nkOOY!rxlTbVxEkw-MFoqu8DRa85IzMzIO1zBngo2MWxU3hZC2uf--DSi39Jg1_QDzFZyl3ShxZFNhM0oEQFMaJMgLmSbzsw$
>
> "High-speed, low-latency internet with up to 350 Mbps download while at
> sea. $5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high
> performance terminals."
>
> I know a bunch of yacthies that have been waiting for this, but are
> now
> disappointed.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> gem@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
> Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
> "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



-- 
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[J Pan]

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per marc's permission. this is how the satellite link looked like (not
clear whether isl was involved) with the frankfurt pop. the behavior
around #3000 is likely due to the cruise wifi
--
J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 3:06 PM Michael Richardson via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>
> Marc Blanchet via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>     > FYI, Currently on a cruise (Silversea) in the Aegean Sea (Greece,
>     > Mediterranean). Latency ~60ms,
>
> Under load?
> You have an apple device, I think, so what's the RPM?
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>            Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Michael Richardson]

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Marc Blanchet via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
    > FYI, Currently on a cruise (Silversea) in the Aegean Sea (Greece,
    > Mediterranean). Latency ~60ms,

Under load?
You have an apple device, I think, so what's the RPM?


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Larry Press]

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Starlink is now available on all Carnival Cruise ships and the CEO says it's "another revenue uplift opportunity and a real game-changer."
https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2024/06/carnivals-weinstein-starlink-is-a-game-changer/#google_vignette

As ISLLs, satellites, and ground stations proliferate, performance will improve on all cruise and other ships. When other providers come online it will get even better.


________________________________
From: Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2024 8:40 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Cc: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea


Given where the author of the blog was, most of the latency would have been from the space segment - the 20 ms are only realistic if the satellite that Dishy talks to can downlink to a ground station within a few 100 km. If the laser ISLs are involved, the path is usually much longer (and the transfer points into and out of the Internet proper aren't always the closest or most obvious ground stations either. We see traceroutes from Tarawa pass through Auckland, regardless of target, despite there being closer ground stations in Australia, for example.

It'd be also interesting to see where cruise ships have which experience. Antarctica does well because the ship and therefore user density is low, and there is little competition for the ISLs. Similarly, ships in moderate latitudes below the mid-50's now typically see a lot of satellites that they can use, and as long as they don't all crowd in large numbers into a single harbour, they should generally be fine. The crunch point will be when you get high concentrations of large ships in northern locations - Norway, Svalbard and Alaska / Inside Passage at this time of year come to mind. That's where low visible capacity meets high user density.

I also wonder how much of a role demographics play. My only trip on a cruise ship to date is a story in its own right, but at the time I couldn't help but notice that I was 30-40 years younger than the age average on board. So quite how many gamers / streamers there'd be among the digital migrants aboard would have been questionable. But then again, that was some time ago, and I'm sure there'd be a few digital natives now. Certainly, there will be in future. So how will that impact on demand and the ability to accommodate the growth in demand?

On 3/07/2024 8:40 am, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:

https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships__;!!P7nkOOY!pT1bZtU8-7BlzcDVh4wMcjwtN_c6n7SwojPwPy_yG1J8VqejxTD_eGpOYFgB2Aen-3dMD4mEauUn9TKJXtNJ8Fr3$>

--
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/__;!!P7nkOOY!pT1bZtU8-7BlzcDVh4wMcjwtN_c6n7SwojPwPy_yG1J8VqejxTD_eGpOYFgB2Aen-3dMD4mEauUn9TKJXi5LD1s7$>
Donations Drive.
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos



_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!pT1bZtU8-7BlzcDVh4wMcjwtN_c6n7SwojPwPy_yG1J8VqejxTD_eGpOYFgB2Aen-3dMD4mEauUn9TKJXmufuhjV$>


--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich/__;fg!!P7nkOOY!pT1bZtU8-7BlzcDVh4wMcjwtN_c6n7SwojPwPy_yG1J8VqejxTD_eGpOYFgB2Aen-3dMD4mEauUn9TKJXhy_56JK$>
****************************************************************





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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Larry Press]

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Starlink Service Is Great on (Some) Cruise Ships:
https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships

My and others' experience on cruise ships and a discussion of variability sources.

________________________________
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Marc Blanchet via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2024 9:21 PM
To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Cc: Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

FYI, Currently on a cruise (Silversea) in the Aegean Sea (Greece, Mediterranean). Latency ~60ms, Download bandwidth= 1Mpbs for free, 10Mbps for premium. Pretty constant measures. Measured by speediest of Cloudflare.

Marc.

Le 2 juill. 2024 à 23:40, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :


https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships__;!!P7nkOOY!uIH0K581Cxe3VAPtQqmJtVXOuOoIKA5KSZnb6aTBJQhS5wLkQq7Wk4xrCEHL86L5fbR8Z8A_PuheT78KD63pc3rQdQ$>

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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[J Pan]

could you please
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarlinkEngineering/comments/17vche2/run_a_few_scripts_behind_your_starlink_dish/
? thanks.  -j
--
J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 9:21 PM Marc Blanchet via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> FYI, Currently on a cruise (Silversea) in the Aegean Sea (Greece, Mediterranean). Latency ~60ms, Download bandwidth= 1Mpbs for free, 10Mbps for premium. Pretty constant measures. Measured by speediest of Cloudflare.
>
> Marc.
>
> Le 2 juill. 2024 à 23:40, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
>
>
> https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships
>
> --
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/
> Donations Drive.
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Marc Blanchet]

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FYI, Currently on a cruise (Silversea) in the Aegean Sea (Greece, Mediterranean). Latency ~60ms, Download bandwidth= 1Mpbs for free, 10Mbps for premium. Pretty constant measures. Measured by speediest of Cloudflare.

Marc.

> Le 2 juill. 2024 à 23:40, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
> 
> 
> https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships
> 
> --
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/
> Donations Drive.
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


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Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea

[Ulrich Speidel]

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Given where the author of the blog was, most of the latency would have 
been from the space segment - the 20 ms are only realistic if the 
satellite that Dishy talks to can downlink to a ground station within a 
few 100 km. If the laser ISLs are involved, the path is usually much 
longer (and the transfer points into and out of the Internet proper 
aren't always the closest or most obvious ground stations either. We see 
traceroutes from Tarawa pass through Auckland, regardless of target, 
despite there being closer ground stations in Australia, for example.

It'd be also interesting to see where cruise ships have which 
experience. Antarctica does well because the ship and therefore user 
density is low, and there is little competition for the ISLs. Similarly, 
ships in moderate latitudes below the mid-50's now typically see a lot 
of satellites that they can use, and as long as they don't all crowd in 
large numbers into a single harbour, they should generally be fine. The 
crunch point will be when you get high concentrations of large ships in 
northern locations - Norway, Svalbard and Alaska / Inside Passage at 
this time of year come to mind. That's where low visible capacity meets 
high user density.

I also wonder how much of a role demographics play. My only trip on a 
cruise ship to date is a story in its own right, but at the time I 
couldn't help but notice that I was 30-40 years younger than the age 
average on board. So quite how many gamers / streamers there'd be among 
the digital migrants aboard would have been questionable. But then 
again, that was some time ago, and I'm sure there'd be a few digital 
natives now. Certainly, there will be in future. So how will that impact 
on demand and the ability to accommodate the growth in demand?

On 3/07/2024 8:40 am, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:
>
> https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships
>
> -- 
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/
> Donations Drive.
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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[Starlink] starlink at sea

[Dave Taht]

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https://circleid.com/posts/20240501-starlink-service-is-great-on-some-cruise-ships

-- 
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Donations Drive.
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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