From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29BE13B2A4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 07:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 3B6C2Df1004559 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:02:13 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 99F38206D57 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:02:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A6A206B86 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:02:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.32.70] (is156570.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.70]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 3B6C2DjH015938 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:02:13 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:02:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: fr To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <94ac13d4-ccf2-475e-a93d-6242fdf1bcbe@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <94ac13d4-ccf2-475e-a93d-6242fdf1bcbe@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CEA-Virus: SOPHOS_SAVI_ERROR_OLD_VIRUS_DATA Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink filings for D-Band via Tonga X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 12:02:15 -0000 In another context someone pointed me to spacex saying 'D-band' in april 2023 in this "NTIA Docket No. 230308-0068 / Docket NTIA-2023-0003" https://www.ntia.gov/sites/default/files/publications/spacex.pdf From that text, I understand it would, or could, be for sat-to-gnd. Le 23/11/2023 à 14:40, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink a écrit : > > Le 17/11/2023 à 23:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit : >> >> Right. Word from the Tongan government's MEIDECC is that it's D band >> as per the filing and that the reports on W band are wrong. >> > Can MEIDECC point me to the precise place at the ITU filing that says > it's D band?  Thank you! > > I could not find the word 'D-band' or 'D band' in the 'ESIAFI > application file  ("'ESIAFI II API-A(1).mdb"  at ITU > https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068) > > People nominate bands in various ways.  As an example of a potential > confusion, there is this other wikipedia image that shows the freqs in > question (123-ish, 170-ish GHz) being called 'EHF' by ITU and 'W' by > IEEE.  Further to the confusion, the diagram says that the EU, NATO > and US ECM (not sure what  is ECM) call 'D' band something around 2 > GHz or so, which is much lower than this 123-ish, 170-ish GHz. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum#/media/File:Frq_Band_Comparison.png > > I will look later at maybe joining that ITU group to ask it there as > well. > > Alex > >> Beyond that, they're not authorised to say anything except that yes, >> it's a genuine filing. >> >> I don't think Tonga is a likely launch base (no large tracts of land >> to launch a rocket from, except as some locals would probably tell >> you, from the driveway of a certain royal residence). Who knows. >> >> I'd also say that SpaceX filings to the FCC at least have a track >> history of being superseded by the next filing a few weeks later with >> completely different parameters. Whether that's just rapid >> prototyping at SpaceX or whether they're deliberately designed as a >> groundhog version of April Fool's Day for the competition's lawyers >> to keep them spend money on litigation while SpaceX spends on >> innovation is anyone's guess. Similarly, having slept over it, the >> Tongan story could be a SpaceX attempt at establishing a "flag of >> convenience" operation, or it could simply be another of Elon's >> pranks to whip us and the media all up into a frenzy to keep people >> talking about his enterprises. >> >> On 17/11/2023 11:43 pm, Ulrich Speidel wrote: >>> >>> OK, so this seems to be related to a somewhat bigger development >>> that Starlink is pushing through Tonga as the regulatory authority: >>> >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/175ttvz/spacex_files_29988satellite_wband_network_using/ >>> >>> https://www.spaceintelreport.com/spacex-files-29988-satellite-w-band-network-using-kingdom-of-tonga-as-regulatory-home/ >>> >>> >>> ESIAFI 1 was bought by Tonga - it was the old COMSTAR 4 satellite >>> and named after their women's rugby team. >>> >>> Quite why they've chosen Tonga as regulatory home - no idea. Maybe >>> because they think Tonga owes them a favour. Currently trying to >>> find out more - stay tuned. >>> >>> On 17/11/2023 6:29 am, David Fernández via Starlink wrote: >>>> Hi Alex, >>>> >>>> "A person on twitter seems to be saying this filing is precisely the >>>> filing that spacex did at FCC" >>>> >>>> Would you mind linking to that tweet, if it is public? >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 14:27:03 +0100 >>>> > From: Alexandre Petrescu >>>> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink filings for D-Band via Tonga >>>> > Message-ID: <805d52ce-b517-49b9-a053-8306cd20b8aa@gmail.com> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>>> > >>>> > Towards clarification, >>>> > >>>> > The .mdb file of the ITU filing can be read with Excel (tab Data -> >>>> > leftmost button 'Access'). The .mdb is on the web page of the ITU >>>> > filing, at the bottom of the page. >>>> > >>>> https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068 >>>> > >>>> > It might be that this 'ESIAFI II' is just a name because of some >>>> reason. >>>> > >>>> > There are some interesting dates like '06/03/2023', '13/03/2023' and >>>> > '20/03/2023' and '6/10/2023'. >>>> > >>>> > There is much data about orbits, powers, beams that I dont know >>>> how to >>>> > interpret. I would need the precise description of the database >>>> format, >>>> > but I dont know where to get it from. >>>> > >>>> > The frequencies are listed, as I interpret these fields: 123 GHz >>>> - 130 >>>> > GHz centered on 126.5 GHz, 158.5-164 c 161.25 and 167-174.5 c >>>> 170.75. >>>> > >>>> > About D-band: I am not sure what is precisely a 'D band' and I think >>>> > that discussion about bands is very complicated. I know there is >>>> > wikipedia page about it, yes. >>>> > >>>> > A person on twitter seems to be saying this filing is precisely the >>>> > filing that spacex did at FCC; but comparing the numbers shows some >>>> > differences: total sats per plane differ at some altitudes like >>>> at 525km >>>> > altitude: ITU says 3600 sats whereas FCC says 3360 sats. There >>>> can be >>>> > speculations as to why they differ as there can be errors of various >>>> > people including myself. >>>> > >>>> > The person on twitter tells that ITU filing is in this table, but >>>> I dont >>>> > know how he generated it. Not sure whether he made some syntax >>>> error. >>>> > >>>> >> Altitude (km) Inclination (degrees) Satellites per Plane Planes >>>> >> Total Satellites >>>> >> 340 53 110 48 5280 >>>> >> 345 46 110 48 5280 >>>> >> 350 38 110 48 5280 >>>> >> 360 96.9 120 30 3600 >>>> >> 525 53 120 28 3600 [nota by me: FCC says 3360 and not 3600, see >>>> >> table below] >>>> >> 530 43 120 28 3600 >>>> >> 535 33 120 28 3600 >>>> >> 604 148 12 12 144 >>>> >> 614 115.7 18 18 324 >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > I found this earlier FCC document has this table at this URL >>>> > https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-91A1.pdf (not sure >>>> > whether it is the most authoritative, but at least the mathematics >>>> > 28*120 at altitude 525 does make sense to be 3360). >>>> > >>>> >> Altitude (km) Inclination (degrees) Orbital Planes sats/plane >>>> Total sats >>>> >> >>>> >> 340 53 48 110 5280 >>>> >> >>>> >> 345 46 48 110 5280 >>>> >> >>>> >> 350 38 48 110 5280 >>>> >> >>>> >> 360 96.9 30 120 3600 >>>> >> >>>> >> 525 53 28 120 3360 [nota by me: >>>> >> 28*120 == 3360 indeed] >>>> >> >>>> >> 530 43 28 120 3360 >>>> >> >>>> >> 535 33 28 120 3360 >>>> >> >>>> >> 604 148 12 12 144 >>>> >> >>>> >> 614 115.7 18 18 324 >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > Alex >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Le 16/11/2023 à 10:30, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink a écrit : >>>> >> >>>> >> Le 15/11/2023 à 16:48, David Fernández via Starlink a écrit : >>>> >>> I have got news about the recent filing by Starlink for the use of >>>> >>> frequencies in D-band: >>>> >>> >>>> https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> This has been done via Tonga, not the USA, and is for both, >>>> uplink and >>>> >>> downlink frequencies, although only downlink seems to be >>>> allocated now >>>> >>> for satellite use. >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks for the pointer. >>>> >> >>>> >> It is the first time I hear about this 'ESIAFI II' constellation. I >>>> >> understand it is a different thing than the starlink existing >>>> >> constellation. >>>> >> >>>> >> It adds to the list of plans of LEO Internet constellations >>>> (starlink, >>>> >> kuiper, oneweb etc.) >>>> >> >>>> >> Alex >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Regards, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> David >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> -- >>> **************************************************************** >>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >>> >>> School of Computer Science >>> >>> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >>> >>> The University of Auckland >>> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >>> **************************************************************** >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >> >> School of Computer Science >> >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >> >> The University of Auckland >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >> **************************************************************** >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink