From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from dispatch1-us1.ppe-hosted.com (dispatch1-us1.ppe-hosted.com [148.163.129.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F41A33B29D for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 13:21:48 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: Proofpoint Essentials engine Received: from mx1-us1.ppe-hosted.com (unknown [10.7.64.75]) by mx1-us1.ppe-hosted.com (PPE Hosted ESMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 16BDF1A0080; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:21:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.candelatech.com (mail2.candelatech.com [208.74.158.173]) by mx1-us1.ppe-hosted.com (PPE Hosted ESMTP Server) with ESMTP id CDBA380061; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:21:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.100.195] (50-251-239-81-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.251.239.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.candelatech.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 365E613C2B0; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:21:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mail3.candelatech.com 365E613C2B0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=candelatech.com; s=default; t=1646418106; bh=gO1y8LNcjw9MVK/Zj0sFkqV2Na+X9hsX6ekfcDQrj5s=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DdIB4+TNanXIT0quNY+KCcAQJdHW0smbReTK9u7ZTz8awHGqgJUIUto9FiAWzoDWU mus0aDFBtnvmIHXaPdZ1ojYSkIqz0UPWyh+PCHiK6QU3U9JA3os9fOiTX7WAIxDL5x TYYkggO7oqu/nTdJnizjHKg2qbxQ/IycCNJA0ARU= To: David Lang References: <1646351242.121623495@apps.rackspace.com> <2b2f1808-8cf7-6eae-3157-a5fc554a2424@auckland.ac.nz> <03e73122-63c3-497b-82c6-b7b7f23b627a@Spark> <3ooo342q-s937-qq3-492q-723np793qoo@ynat.uz> <7ee92a7f-ae58-5090-8ee0-32df8ec29c2b@auckland.ac.nz> <712r509p-7on6-5657-3172-n9140n9097@ynat.uz> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" From: Ben Greear Organization: Candela Technologies Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:21:45 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <712r509p-7on6-5657-3172-n9140n9097@ynat.uz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MDID: 1646418107-Rgacj1B80Ati Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 18:21:49 -0000 On 3/4/22 10:14 AM, David Lang wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity >> to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country >> 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places. > > It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about less bandwidth > intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. > > There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. > > Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text chat are very low bandwidth. > > 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy is 100x this. > > I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much bandwidth into an area that > doesn't have wired Internet wihtout requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step > forward for disaster relief. > > With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a point source across a > wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna uses, etc) including how to provide power. > > And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as endpoints now, having > the ability to put a voip app on the phones and have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity bubble without any need to use the external > bandwith, but be able to connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still > using the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same wifi), or more > remote, so that they can > > How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the services get bundled > (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that provide these services and the app images to download for example). What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make > turnkey conversions of APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. I've been using some sub $100 android phones for testing. They typically come loaded with crap-ware, but that could be fixed, and it would be a convenient wifi-only calling phone (and of course it could do a lot more). If someone has ability to drop a starlink dish, they could add a small pack of phones to the drop. That is way more helpful that some hacked together rpi or other cumbersome kludge, and at similar price point. As for a 'voip' app, there are plenty of those already, including shiny 'free' commercial offerings. Thanks, Ben -- Ben Greear Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com