From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC6533B29D for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 04:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [83.61.18.4]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F13C88C09B6; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 08:16:19 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1627460183; bh=wgO4BW//oOEHB8MTjQ68RWbiSYUo7PGrZzpVOlAqAyg=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=aLuLNwTf7rVQjN9spz6BKkPsYFXrh6y3UJ2DlEqRTKZlvbii+T4sg9DO3UKUqQuyH n61yupRjJGQIJh/5HUIoS85aT9XvYFs+ZWxy0bXh/c0b530NqOEGV2RaSzD/xG8qBv jHrb9MIPrBM/C+Kga28mU0RBZsCtxEVh7ACvw0S3+1Fb0Cd+aT5CXhqNU891eoO9lv Cm/JWfy7KY1/3Vr8FDqzo/19V3tx5XPa1O506MF+2M+6GkpI0XJcuiy5S36P4519v4 wMKMRPDp6T+aKd9zPbuZsoGsV86GD2ht18iDZuaI1mQMkVosU6MT8Rk9TBSEwfdhR7 RJPF3Rff0hsdQ== Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 10:16:13 +0200 From: Mike Puchol To: 'Karl Auerbach' , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, dickroy@alum.mit.edu Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1F663310964B4D00AC1C914363EA90DB@SRA6> References: <1F663310964B4D00AC1C914363EA90DB@SRA6> X-Readdle-Message-ID: eecb3b81-2661-44fd-a9c7-6a8cd56ea774@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="61011252_2d1d5ae9_638b" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Intro and a question X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 08:16:25 -0000 --61011252_2d1d5ae9_638b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I won=E2=80=99t pound on the dead donkey too much, Dick is way above my p= ay grade on this one, but I=E2=80=99ll just add that multiple polarizatio= n schemes were explored in the LTE world when they wanted to move from 2x= 2 MIMO (achieved with cross-polarized antennas) to 4x4 and higher orders.= They just couldn=E2=80=99t make it work, so efforts were abandoned - it=E2= =80=99s too hard to achieve the physical separation the =E2=80=9Cinventio= n=E2=80=9D claims through any practical means, which is where Carlos goes= into =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 and I=E2=80=99ll need a big pocketed investor to= prove this works=E2=80=9D. Billions have been spent on research for CDMA= , LTE and 5G, and nothing in the polarization space has ever been margina= lly achieved. Then, considering you only have a single path between a satellite and a g= round station, any claims of higher-order MIMO through physical separatio= n are void. Best, Mike On Jul 28, 2021, 02:00 +0200, Dick Roy , wrote: > Even better, this guy's BS goes back to the late 80's when Qualcomm was= > promising 1000 times AMPS in cellular capacity with their new CDMA > technology=21 =46ast forward, CDMA has disappeared from planet earth as= a > cellular technology ... and 3 major telecommunications manufacturers ar= e out > of business=21=21 > > RR > > -----Original Message----- > =46rom: Starlink =5Bmailto:starlink-bounces=40lists.bufferbloat.net=5D = On Behalf Of > Karl Auerbach > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:09 PM > To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D Intro and a question > > > On 7/26/21 8:51 PM, Larry Press wrote: > > > > https://spacenews.com/tech-breakthrough-morphs-gigabit-wifi-into-terabi= t-sat > ellite-internet/ > > > tellite-internet/> > > Wow=21 I got massive deja vu and thought had to check whether I was > reading a 1970's copy of the JC Whitney Catalog=21 > > (Or my own CaveBear Catalog - of hyperbolic bogus network stuff: =22If = we > have it, you don't need it=22), most particularly: > > - Our Press Release from one of the Interop shows, people actually > believed this=21=21 Gaga Net: > https://www.cavebear.com/cb=5Fcatalog/techno/gaganet/ ) > > - The Maximum Momentum Router: > https://www.cavebear.com/cb=5Fcatalog/current/maxmoment/ > > (=46or those who don't remember, the JC Whitnet catalog was filled with= > things for your car that would improve gas milage by a zillion percent > or bump horsepower by 200hp. With that catalog one could turn an old > 1200cc VW bug into a flame breathing monster, or so one would if one > accepted the hyperbole.) > > OK, let's accept this guy's claims as true. Do they make an end-to-end > difference=3F > > Perhaps if the satellite part of the end-to-end path is truly a bit > synchronous =22bent-pipe=22. But Starlink seems to be evolving far past= > that simple bit-clocked-circuit model into something more resembling a > space internet with routers, or at least a switched network that could > have issues such as choice of route, multiple inputs feeding into one > output (in other words, potential congestion). > > BTW, I did like the article's phrase =22High Definition Internet=22 - I= t > immediately called to mind =22Brawndo - it's got electrolytes=22 (from = the > movie Idiocracy. > > --karl-- > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --61011252_2d1d5ae9_638b Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I won=E2=80=99t pound on the dead donkey too much, = Dick is way above my pay grade on this one, but I=E2=80=99ll just add tha= t multiple polarization schemes were explored in the LTE world when they = wanted to move from 2x2 MIMO (achieved with cross-polarized antennas) to = 4x4 and higher orders. They just couldn=E2=80=99t make it work, so effort= s were abandoned - it=E2=80=99s too hard to achieve the physical separati= on the =E2=80=9Cinvention=E2=80=9D claims through any practical means, wh= ich is where Carlos goes into =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 and I=E2=80=99ll need a = big pocketed investor to prove this works=E2=80=9D. Billions have been sp= ent on research for CDMA, LTE and 5G, and nothing in the polarization spa= ce has ever been marginally achieved.

Then, considering you only have a single path between a satellite and a g= round station, any claims of higher-order MIMO through physical separatio= n are void.

Best,

Mike
On Jul 28, 2021, 02:00 +0200, Dick = Roy <dickroy=40alum.mit.edu>, wrote:
Even better, this guy's BS goes back to the late 80's when Qual= comm was
promising 1000 times AMPS in cellular capacity with their new CDMA
technology=21 =46ast forward, CDMA has disappeared from planet earth as a=
cellular technology ... and 3 major telecommunications manufacturers are = out
of business=21=21

RR

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: Starlink =5Bmailto:starlink-bounces=40lists.bufferbloat.net=5D On= Behalf Of
Karl Auerbach
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:09 PM
To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D Intro and a question


On 7/26/21 8:51 PM, Larry Press wrote:


https://spacenews.com/tech-breakthrough-morphs-gigabit-wifi-into-terabit-= sat
ellite-internet/

<https://spacenews.com/tech-breakthrough-morphs-gigabit-wifi-into-tera= bit-sa
tellite-internet/>

Wow=21 I got massive deja vu and thought had to check whether I was
= reading a 1970's copy of the JC Whitney Catalog=21

(Or my own CaveBear Catalog - of hyperbolic bogus network stuff: =22If we=
have it, you don't need it=22), most particularly:

- Our Press Release from one of the Interop shows, people actually
believed this=21=21 Gaga Net:
https://www.cavebear.com/cb=5Fcatalog/techno/gaganet/ )

- The Maximum Momentum Router:
https://www.cavebear.com/cb=5Fcatalog/current/maxmoment/

(=46or those who don't remember, the JC Whitnet catalog was filled with things for your car that would improve gas milage by a zillion percent or bump horsepower by 200hp. With that catalog one could turn an old
1200cc VW bug into a flame breathing monster, or so one would if one
accepted the hyperbole.)

OK, let's accept this guy's claims as true. Do they make an end-to-end difference=3F

Perhaps if the satellite part of the end-to-end path is truly a bit
= synchronous =22bent-pipe=22. But Starlink seems to be evolving far past that simple bit-clocked-circuit model into something more resembling a space internet with routers, or at least a switched network that could have issues such as choice of route, multiple inputs feeding into one
output (in other words, potential congestion).

BTW, I did like the article's phrase =22High Definition Internet=22 - It<= br /> immediately called to mind =22Brawndo - it's got electrolytes=22 (from th= e
movie Idiocracy.

--karl--
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
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