[Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Ulrich Speidel]

The other day I had reason to look up the Starlink spectrum licences in 
NZ. These are issued by Radio Spectrum Management in NZ and used to be 
in the Register of Radio Frequencies, which is publicly searchable:

https://www.rsm.govt.nz/licensing/how-do-i/use-the-rrf/search-the-rrf/

Alas, this time, I've drawn an almost complete blank. None of the six 
known ground stations still have their licenses on the register. There 
are a few lone search suggestions for a licence "57321 PUWERA STARLINK 
SES", "56530 TE HANA STARLINK SES", "57189 CLEVEDON STARLINK SES", 
"57282 HINDS STARLINK SES", "56839 CROMWELL STARLINK SES", and "56383 
AWARUA STARLINK SES" but these searches come up empty or with irrelevant 
results. Similarly, searching for any kind of satellite licence fails to 
find them. Similarly looking for "starlink", "space", or "spacex".

Yet a traceroute from our Dishy shows that we're still landing in NZ. So 
that presumably means that the teleports are still operating here and 
that Starlink isn't backhauling via laser to elsewhere.

Security? The locations of the teleports are well known, they're 
plastered all over the Internet and are visible on Google Maps/Earth. So 
they're probably not hiding the licences to disguise location.

Website dysfunction? Possible. NZ government department websites don't 
always work all that well. But I can also find plenty of other licences 
on the site, so it's not all that dysfunctional.

Licence holder change? Then they should pop up under satellite spectrum 
licenses, but all the contenders there are the usual suspects (Inmarsat, 
Optus, Iridium, ...). No Starlink in Ku or Ka band.

That makes me wonder: Is Elon not paying his fees?

Anyone seeing anything similar where they are?

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************

[Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Inemesit Affia]

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Can you look for tibro or oneweb?

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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Ulrich Speidel]

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Blank.

On 13/11/2023 2:29 pm, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
> Can you look for tibro or oneweb?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Hayden Simon]

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I asked someone who would know about such things; and he said:

“from the looks of it, most of the licences expired. Either because they weren't being used, or because Starlink forgot to pay for them, or because the RRF is such a giant cluster it ate all their licenses. (this would not be unusual)

I can see eleventy billion expired licenses in there and at least enough to keep their business going that were planned in October and are in "awaiting payment to grant" state now.
“


HAYDEN SIMON
UBER GROUP LIMITED
MANAGING DIRECTOR
E: h@uber.nz
M: 021 0707 014
W: www.uber.nz
53 PORT ROAD | PO BOX 5083 | WHANGAREI | NEW ZEALAND
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel via Starlink
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 2:46 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences


Blank.
On 13/11/2023 2:29 pm, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
Can you look for tibro or oneweb?



_______________________________________________

Starlink mailing list

Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>

https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



--

****************************************************************

Dr. Ulrich Speidel



School of Computer Science



Room 303S.594 (City Campus)



The University of Auckland

u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/

****************************************************************







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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Ulrich Speidel]

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That would not surprise me much.

The frequencies are clearly being used, though, as we're seeing traffic 
from Starlink our Starlink dishy come in via vocusgroup (one of their 
backhaulers) to the Auckland Peering Exchange with RTTs that preclude 
the use of an overseas teleport.

Given that your local MP has a passing interest in Starlink, shall we ask?

On 13/11/2023 2:57 pm, Hayden Simon wrote:
>
> I asked someone who would know about such things; and he said:
>
> “from the looks of it, most of the licences expired. Either because 
> they weren't being used, or because Starlink forgot to pay for them, 
> or because the RRF is such a giant cluster it ate all their licenses. 
> (this would not be unusual)
>
> I can see eleventy billion expired licenses in there and at least 
> enough to keep their business going that were planned in October and 
> are in "awaiting payment to grant" state now.
>
> “
>
> HAYDEN​ SIMON
> UBER GROUP LIMITED
> MANAGING DIRECTOR
>
> 	
> <https://www.facebook.com/UberGroup?_rdr=p> 
> 	<https://twitter.com/ubergroupltd>
>
> E: h@uber.nz
>
> M: 021 0707 014 <tel:021%200707%20014>
>
> W: www.uber.nz 
> <http://www.uber.nz>
>
> 53 PORT ROAD | PO BOX 5083 | WHANGAREI | NEW ZEALAND
>
> 			
>
> *From:*Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> *On Behalf Of 
> *Ulrich Speidel via Starlink
> *Sent:* Monday, November 13, 2023 2:46 PM
> *To:* starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink 
> spectrum licences
>
> Blank.
>
> On 13/11/2023 2:29 pm, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
>
>     Can you look for tibro or oneweb?
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Starlink mailing list
>
>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink  <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
> School of Computer Science
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/  <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/>
> ****************************************************************

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Hayden Simon]

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Ask what?

It looks like either they haven’t paid, or RRF is having a hard time. Best to direct the question to MBIE / RSM.

HAYDEN​​​​ SIMON
UBER GROUP LIMITED
MANAGING DIRECTOR
[https://uber.nz/app/uploads/signatures/uber-facebook-icon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/UberGroup?_rdr=p>
[https://uber.nz/app/uploads/signatures/uber-twitter-icon.png]<https://twitter.com/ubergroupltd>
E: h@uber.nz<mailto:h@uber.nz>
M: 021 0707 014<tel:021%200707%20014>
W: www.uber.nz<http://www.uber.nz/>
53 PORT ROAD | PO BOX 5083 | WHANGAREI | NEW ZEALAND





From: Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 3:17 PM
To: Hayden Simon <h@uber.nz>; starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences


That would not surprise me much.

The frequencies are clearly being used, though, as we're seeing traffic from Starlink our Starlink dishy come in via vocusgroup (one of their backhaulers) to the Auckland Peering Exchange with RTTs that preclude the use of an overseas teleport.

Given that your local MP has a passing interest in Starlink, shall we ask?
On 13/11/2023 2:57 pm, Hayden Simon wrote:
I asked someone who would know about such things; and he said:

“from the looks of it, most of the licences expired. Either because they weren't being used, or because Starlink forgot to pay for them, or because the RRF is such a giant cluster it ate all their licenses. (this would not be unusual)

I can see eleventy billion expired licenses in there and at least enough to keep their business going that were planned in October and are in "awaiting payment to grant" state now.
“

HAYDEN​ SIMON
UBER GROUP LIMITED
MANAGING DIRECTOR
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/UberGroup?_rdr=p>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ubergroupltd>
E: h@uber.nz<mailto:h@uber.nz>
M: 021 0707 014<tel:021%200707%20014>
W: www.uber.nz<http://www.uber.nz>
53 PORT ROAD | PO BOX 5083 | WHANGAREI | NEW ZEALAND




From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel via Starlink
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 2:46 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences


Blank.
On 13/11/2023 2:29 pm, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
Can you look for tibro or oneweb?




_______________________________________________

Starlink mailing list

Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>

https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



--

****************************************************************

Dr. Ulrich Speidel



School of Computer Science



Room 303S.594 (City Campus)



The University of Auckland

u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/

****************************************************************







--

****************************************************************

Dr. Ulrich Speidel



School of Computer Science



Room 303S.594 (City Campus)



The University of Auckland

u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/

****************************************************************







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[Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Inemesit Affia]

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In countries where it's an option SpaceX has asked for as much confidentiality/redaction as possible.

Of course not paying bills could also be happening


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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Ulrich Speidel]

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Given that there are hundreds of NZ Defence Force licences on the 
register and publicly visible, I'd doubt that SpaceX would be afforded 
redaction here. The licences were there until not too long ago. Ku and 
Ka band use including frequencies are well known, and the teleport 
locations are also well known.

As are Starlink NZ's companies:

https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/8643546
https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/7744177

Project Kuiper has a couple of licences for the Warkworth teleport.

On 13/11/2023 2:34 pm, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
> In countries where it's an option SpaceX has asked for as much 
> confidentiality/redaction as possible.
>
> Of course not paying bills could also be happening
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 13/11/2023 à 02:27, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> The other day I had reason to look up the Starlink spectrum licences 
> in NZ. These are issued by Radio Spectrum Management in NZ and used to 
> be in the Register of Radio Frequencies, which is publicly searchable:
>
> https://www.rsm.govt.nz/licensing/how-do-i/use-the-rrf/search-the-rrf/
>
> Alas, this time, I've drawn an almost complete blank. None of the six 
> known ground stations still have their licenses on the register. There 
> are a few lone search suggestions for a licence "57321 PUWERA STARLINK 
> SES", "56530 TE HANA STARLINK SES", "57189 CLEVEDON STARLINK SES", 
> "57282 HINDS STARLINK SES", "56839 CROMWELL STARLINK SES", and "56383 
> AWARUA STARLINK SES" but these searches come up empty or with 
> irrelevant results. Similarly, searching for any kind of satellite 
> licence fails to find them. Similarly looking for "starlink", "space", 
> or "spacex".
>
> Yet a traceroute from our Dishy shows that we're still landing in NZ. 
> So that presumably means that the teleports are still operating here 
> and that Starlink isn't backhauling via laser to elsewhere.
>
> Security? The locations of the teleports are well known, they're 
> plastered all over the Internet and are visible on Google Maps/Earth. 
> So they're probably not hiding the licences to disguise location.

I think there is a problem with the names of locations of teleports 
reported by these sites.  I suggest to not take them seriously.

For example, satellitemap.space shows for France a same photo for two 
different locations of 2 teleports.

I am not sure how they calculate the positions of the teleports and how 
they report it?

>
> Website dysfunction? Possible. NZ government department websites don't 
> always work all that well. But I can also find plenty of other 
> licences on the site, so it's not all that dysfunctional.
>
> Licence holder change? Then they should pop up under satellite 
> spectrum licenses, but all the contenders there are the usual suspects 
> (Inmarsat, Optus, Iridium, ...). No Starlink in Ku or Ka band.
>
> That makes me wonder: Is Elon not paying his fees?
>
> Anyone seeing anything similar where they are?


I did a search for France and starlink frequencies and city names, at 
regulators ARCEP and at LegiFrance at gov't.  There is also an EU 
regulator to check, as well but I could not identify properly.

I wanted to find precisely the allocated starlink frequencies and the 
cities of teleports.

I could not find definite answers, because: there were disputes in the 
allocations and there are newcomers (Starlink-like LEO Internet 
providers, civilian and military).  There also oppinions from the public 
at large that influence the decisions, typically related to health and 
environmental risks.

This is my interpretation of the current allocations:

The freqs allocated to Starlink in France are: 10.95 GHz (in some docs 
it's written 10.96 GHz) - 12.70 GHz, 14-14.5GHz, 17.7-19.3 GHz and 29.5 
- 30 GHz. 
https://www.arcep.fr/actualites/actualites-et-communiques/detail/n/frequences-180423.html

Other constellation freqs that might overlap:

     The freqs considered for allocation to Thales (MCSAT or oneweb?, 
allocated or still under consideration? remark potential overlaps with 
starlink): 17.8 - 18.6 GHz, 18.8 - 19.3 GHz, 19.3 - 19.7 GHz. 
https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/20-1409.pdf

     The freqs considered for allocation by law to Thales for "MCSAT-2 
LEO-2": 17.8-18.6, 18.8-20.2,19.7-20.2 (strange two times 20.2), 
27.5-30,29.5-30. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043142179

     There are some ARCEP consultations to the public about potential 
allocations to OneWeb.

Maybe these potential overlaps have already been fixed, I dont know.


The names of cities:

     The names of cities where starlink teleports might be situated 
hardly appear in the freq allocation documents.  One can see in the 
starlink ARCEP allocations, maybe a city name like "Carros 
(Alpes-Maritimes) ".  There are maybe a few (3?) such city names in the 
ARCEP docs.  Or maybe I could not find them where they are.

     The official(?) geoip  of starlink places indicate only one region 
for France, e.g. "145.224.76.0/24,FR,FR-IDF,Paris".  There are 28 such 
entries for 'FR' and they are all "FR-IDF".  It stands for  Île de 
France, a particular region in France. 
https://geoip.starlinkisp.net/feed.csv

     The teleports shown by satellitemap.space for France are 2 and are 
not situated in IdF (Île-de-France).

     It is incoherent: how many teleports are in France?  Are they all 
situated in IdF?

Alex

Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences

[Inemesit Affia]

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Use starlink.sx instead

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023, 12:24 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> Le 13/11/2023 à 02:27, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> > The other day I had reason to look up the Starlink spectrum licences
> > in NZ. These are issued by Radio Spectrum Management in NZ and used to
> > be in the Register of Radio Frequencies, which is publicly searchable:
> >
> > https://www.rsm.govt.nz/licensing/how-do-i/use-the-rrf/search-the-rrf/
> >
> > Alas, this time, I've drawn an almost complete blank. None of the six
> > known ground stations still have their licenses on the register. There
> > are a few lone search suggestions for a licence "57321 PUWERA STARLINK
> > SES", "56530 TE HANA STARLINK SES", "57189 CLEVEDON STARLINK SES",
> > "57282 HINDS STARLINK SES", "56839 CROMWELL STARLINK SES", and "56383
> > AWARUA STARLINK SES" but these searches come up empty or with
> > irrelevant results. Similarly, searching for any kind of satellite
> > licence fails to find them. Similarly looking for "starlink", "space",
> > or "spacex".
> >
> > Yet a traceroute from our Dishy shows that we're still landing in NZ.
> > So that presumably means that the teleports are still operating here
> > and that Starlink isn't backhauling via laser to elsewhere.
> >
> > Security? The locations of the teleports are well known, they're
> > plastered all over the Internet and are visible on Google Maps/Earth.
> > So they're probably not hiding the licences to disguise location.
>
> I think there is a problem with the names of locations of teleports
> reported by these sites.  I suggest to not take them seriously.
>
> For example, satellitemap.space shows for France a same photo for two
> different locations of 2 teleports.
>
> I am not sure how they calculate the positions of the teleports and how
> they report it?
>
> >
> > Website dysfunction? Possible. NZ government department websites don't
> > always work all that well. But I can also find plenty of other
> > licences on the site, so it's not all that dysfunctional.
> >
> > Licence holder change? Then they should pop up under satellite
> > spectrum licenses, but all the contenders there are the usual suspects
> > (Inmarsat, Optus, Iridium, ...). No Starlink in Ku or Ka band.
> >
> > That makes me wonder: Is Elon not paying his fees?
> >
> > Anyone seeing anything similar where they are?
>
>
> I did a search for France and starlink frequencies and city names, at
> regulators ARCEP and at LegiFrance at gov't.  There is also an EU
> regulator to check, as well but I could not identify properly.
>
> I wanted to find precisely the allocated starlink frequencies and the
> cities of teleports.
>
> I could not find definite answers, because: there were disputes in the
> allocations and there are newcomers (Starlink-like LEO Internet
> providers, civilian and military).  There also oppinions from the public
> at large that influence the decisions, typically related to health and
> environmental risks.
>
> This is my interpretation of the current allocations:
>
> The freqs allocated to Starlink in France are: 10.95 GHz (in some docs
> it's written 10.96 GHz) - 12.70 GHz, 14-14.5GHz, 17.7-19.3 GHz and 29.5
> - 30 GHz.
>
> https://www.arcep.fr/actualites/actualites-et-communiques/detail/n/frequences-180423.html
>
> Other constellation freqs that might overlap:
>
>      The freqs considered for allocation to Thales (MCSAT or oneweb?,
> allocated or still under consideration? remark potential overlaps with
> starlink): 17.8 - 18.6 GHz, 18.8 - 19.3 GHz, 19.3 - 19.7 GHz.
> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/20-1409.pdf
>
>      The freqs considered for allocation by law to Thales for "MCSAT-2
> LEO-2": 17.8-18.6, 18.8-20.2,19.7-20.2 (strange two times 20.2),
> 27.5-30,29.5-30.
> https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043142179
>
>      There are some ARCEP consultations to the public about potential
> allocations to OneWeb.
>
> Maybe these potential overlaps have already been fixed, I dont know.
>
>
> The names of cities:
>
>      The names of cities where starlink teleports might be situated
> hardly appear in the freq allocation documents.  One can see in the
> starlink ARCEP allocations, maybe a city name like "Carros
> (Alpes-Maritimes) ".  There are maybe a few (3?) such city names in the
> ARCEP docs.  Or maybe I could not find them where they are.
>
>      The official(?) geoip  of starlink places indicate only one region
> for France, e.g. "145.224.76.0/24,FR,FR-IDF,Paris".  There are 28 such
> entries for 'FR' and they are all "FR-IDF".  It stands for  Île de
> France, a particular region in France.
> https://geoip.starlinkisp.net/feed.csv
>
>      The teleports shown by satellitemap.space for France are 2 and are
> not situated in IdF (Île-de-France).
>
>      It is incoherent: how many teleports are in France?  Are they all
> situated in IdF?
>
> Alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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