[Starlink] Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Starlink] Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Frantisek Borsik]

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7398740927332352000/

No word on expected latencies, though.

Just: "The antenna is powered by a custom silicon chip designed by Amazon
Leo and incorporates Amazon's proprietary radio frequency (RF) design and
signal processing algorithms that maximize throughput while minimizing
latency—critical factors for applications like video conferencing,
real-time monitoring, and cloud computing. Leo Ultra also features advanced
networking capabilities, including simultaneous upload and download
capabilities and seamless integration with existing enterprise network
infrastructure." at
https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/amazon-leo/amazon-leo-satellite-internet-ultra-pro

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[J Pan]

1gbps down and 400mbps up at the same time, if indeed true if we can
measure it, is a bit amazing, although not shown in
https://www.pcmag.com/news/amazons-starlink-rival-project-kuiper-demos-1-gigabit-downloads
yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45MFTpKfxII has a bit more tech
info but still sparse. look forward to the opportunities to actually
measure it
--
J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan

On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 7:36 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7398740927332352000/
>
> No word on expected latencies, though.
>
> Just: "The antenna is powered by a custom silicon chip designed by Amazon
> Leo and incorporates Amazon's proprietary radio frequency (RF) design and
> signal processing algorithms that maximize throughput while minimizing
> latency—critical factors for applications like video conferencing,
> real-time monitoring, and cloud computing. Leo Ultra also features advanced
> networking capabilities, including simultaneous upload and download
> capabilities and seamless integration with existing enterprise network
> infrastructure." at
> https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/amazon-leo/amazon-leo-satellite-internet-ultra-pro
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

'up to'

We'll see if they can deliver.

There are people here who keep saying that Starlink cannot provide higher speeds 
due to limitations on the total spectrum available to each cell. Leo will have 
far fewer satellites (at least for a very long while), so the only way they will 
be able to provide higher speeds is if they have far fewer customers.

That does not sound like a way to win in the long run to me.

David Lang


On Sat, 6 Dec 2025, Frantisek Borsik via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2025 16:36:39 +0100
> From: Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: [Starlink] Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps
>     (UP)
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7398740927332352000/
>
> No word on expected latencies, though.
>
> Just: "The antenna is powered by a custom silicon chip designed by Amazon
> Leo and incorporates Amazon's proprietary radio frequency (RF) design and
> signal processing algorithms that maximize throughput while minimizing
> latency—critical factors for applications like video conferencing,
> real-time monitoring, and cloud computing. Leo Ultra also features advanced
> networking capabilities, including simultaneous upload and download
> capabilities and seamless integration with existing enterprise network
> infrastructure." at
> https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/amazon-leo/amazon-leo-satellite-internet-ultra-pro
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

I believe the really surprising thing is Starlink isn't also using Ka for small business users at least.

Even if they don't want to make antennas there's some available at retail.

Yes I know about community gateways

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

Inemesit Affia wrote:

> I believe the really surprising thing is Starlink isn't also using Ka for small business users at least.
>
> Even if they don't want to make antennas there's some available at retail.

do small businesses really need higher speeds than they can get now? Unless your 
business is extremely internet heavy, you really don't need a lot of bandwidth 
to run a business, and the regular dishy will be overkill. Then there are the 
high performance ones.

Most businesses have FAR less bandwith than most people think they do.

David Lang

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

I've seen churches and other venues doing live video uploads have to switch codecs.

Thankfully since last year, YouTube which most users use supports AV1 in addition to HEVC

Dec 7, 2025 1:08:09 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm>:

> Inemesit Affia wrote:
> 
>> I believe the really surprising thing is Starlink isn't also using Ka for small business users at least.
>> 
>> Even if they don't want to make antennas there's some available at retail.
> 
> do small businesses really need higher speeds than they can get now? Unless your business is extremely internet heavy, you really don't need a lot of bandwidth to run a business, and the regular dishy will be overkill. Then there are the high performance ones.
> 
> Most businesses have FAR less bandwith than most people think they do.
> 
> David Lang

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

Michael Richardson wrote:

> Would be nice to be able to afford p2p video.
> Would be fantastic if L3 decisions could occur in space when the recipients
> are "nearby'

I've seen a lot of people using starlink for zoom calls without issues

> One use case from northern canada that I'm aware is the 9am login at
> government offices.  Lots of bandwidth needed to do all that ActiveDirectory
> profile replication/update for all the people doing this at the same time.
> I've heard stories of it taking an hour for everyone to get logged in.
> AD replication ought to solve this, but apparently, it doesn't for reasons I
> don't understand.

microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips. There are 
wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols. It's not just the AD 
lookups, it's filesystem queries as well.

David Lang

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

Michael Richardson wrote:

> David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>    > Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>    >> Would be nice to be able to afford p2p video.
>    >> Would be fantastic if L3 decisions could occur in space when the recipients
>    >> are "nearby'
>
>    > I've seen a lot of people using starlink for zoom calls without issues
>
> I mean, without zoom or any central server in some DC.
> "Church' sends video directly.

what uplink bandwith are they needing? I see many people using starlink to 
stream live 4k video of cameras from Starbase Tx, frequently multiple cameras 
per starlink.

David Lang

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Michael Kan]

latency for Amazon Leo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCx612z930

On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 1:15 PM David Lang via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Michael Richardson wrote:
>
> > David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> >    > Michael Richardson wrote:
> >
> >    >> Would be nice to be able to afford p2p video.
> >    >> Would be fantastic if L3 decisions could occur in space when the
> recipients
> >    >> are "nearby'
> >
> >    > I've seen a lot of people using starlink for zoom calls without
> issues
> >
> > I mean, without zoom or any central server in some DC.
> > "Church' sends video directly.
>
> what uplink bandwith are they needing? I see many people using starlink to
> stream live 4k video of cameras from Starbase Tx, frequently multiple
> cameras
> per starlink.
>
> David Lang
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>

-- 


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[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

David, those are latencies for each component.

Don't expect the ~25 ms Starlink can do right now in the Continental USA. I believe in that re Invent video from Amazon, they mentioned 50 ms to start with.

Dec 8, 2025 10:22:32 PM Michael Kan <michael_kan@pcmag.com>:

> latency for Amazon Leo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCx612z930
> 
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 1:15 PM David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> Michael Richardson wrote:
>> 
>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>    > Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>
>>>    >> Would be nice to be able to afford p2p video.
>>>    >> Would be fantastic if L3 decisions could occur in space when the recipients
>>>    >> are "nearby'
>>>
>>>    > I've seen a lot of people using starlink for zoom calls without issues
>>>
>>> I mean, without zoom or any central server in some DC.
>>> "Church' sends video directly.
>> 
>> what uplink bandwith are they needing? I see many people using starlink to
>> stream live 4k video of cameras from Starbase Tx, frequently multiple cameras
>> per starlink.
>> 
>> David Lang
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> This email, its contents and attachments contain information from Ziff Davis, Inc. and/or its affiliates which may be privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. The information is intended to be for the addressee(s) only. If you are not an addressee, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the original message and any copies.

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

I meant Michael rather.

Dec 9, 2025 12:19:35 AM Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>:

> David, those are latencies for each component.
> 
> Don't expect the ~25 ms Starlink can do right now in the Continental USA. I believe in that re Invent video from Amazon, they mentioned 50 ms to start with.
> 
> Dec 8, 2025 10:22:32 PM Michael Kan <michael_kan@pcmag.com>:
> 
>> latency for Amazon Leo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCx612z930
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 1:15 PM David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> Michael Richardson wrote:
>>> 
>>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>    > Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    >> Would be nice to be able to afford p2p video.
>>>>    >> Would be fantastic if L3 decisions could occur in space when the recipients
>>>>    >> are "nearby'
>>>>
>>>>    > I've seen a lot of people using starlink for zoom calls without issues
>>>>
>>>> I mean, without zoom or any central server in some DC.
>>>> "Church' sends video directly.
>>> 
>>> what uplink bandwith are they needing? I see many people using starlink to
>>> stream live 4k video of cameras from Starbase Tx, frequently multiple cameras
>>> per starlink.
>>> 
>>> David Lang
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
>> This email, its contents and attachments contain information from Ziff Davis, Inc. and/or its affiliates which may be privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. The information is intended to be for the addressee(s) only. If you are not an addressee, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the original message and any copies.

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

Michael Kan wrote:

> latency for Amazon Leo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCx612z930

Until they have the system operational, be very leery about bandwidth and 
latency claims.

Remember that Starlink had to do-bloat things to make their user-experienced 
latency line up with their early lab tests.

David Lang

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Collier-Brown]

Michael Richardson wrote:

>
>> One use case from northern canada that I'm aware is the 9am login at
>> government offices.  Lots of bandwidth needed to do all that 
>> ActiveDirectory
>> profile replication/update for all the people doing this at the same 
>> time.
>> I've heard stories of it taking an hour for everyone to get logged in.
>> AD replication ought to solve this, but apparently, it doesn't for 
>> reasons I
>> don't understand.

On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
> microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips. 
> There are wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols. 
> It's not just the AD lookups, it's filesystem queries as well. 

MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than 
the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people 
built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.

They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.

--dave

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Frantisek Borsik]

I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave Taht
here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(

Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Michael Richardson wrote:
>
> >
> >> One use case from northern canada that I'm aware is the 9am login at
> >> government offices.  Lots of bandwidth needed to do all that
> >> ActiveDirectory
> >> profile replication/update for all the people doing this at the same
> >> time.
> >> I've heard stories of it taking an hour for everyone to get logged in.
> >> AD replication ought to solve this, but apparently, it doesn't for
> >> reasons I
> >> don't understand.
>
> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
> > microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips.
> > There are wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols.
> > It's not just the AD lookups, it's filesystem queries as well.
>
> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
>
> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
>
> --dave
>
> --
> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

Amazon also makes residential routers in the EERO brand. I heard they had then removed their AQM (in a new product).

Don't know the current state.

But there's institutional knowledge.

Dec 9, 2025 8:48:53 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:

> I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
> FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
> Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave Taht
> here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(
> 
> Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
> options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
> like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
> https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> 
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> 
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> 
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> 
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> 
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> 
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> Michael Richardson wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>> One use case from northern canada that I'm aware is the 9am login at
>>>> government offices.  Lots of bandwidth needed to do all that
>>>> ActiveDirectory
>>>> profile replication/update for all the people doing this at the same
>>>> time.
>>>> I've heard stories of it taking an hour for everyone to get logged in.
>>>> AD replication ought to solve this, but apparently, it doesn't for
>>>> reasons I
>>>> don't understand.
>> 
>> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>>> microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips.
>>> There are wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols.
>>> It's not just the AD lookups, it's filesystem queries as well.
>> 
>> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
>> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
>> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
>> 
>> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
>> 
>> --dave
>> 
>> -- 
>> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
>> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
>> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Frantisek Borsik]

Yeah, eero has (or had?!) a great CAKE implementation. So now they got rid
of it? WTH

Can you share more about it? Even if only privately…

All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

In loving memory of Dave Täht: 1965-2025
https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 at 9:11 AM, Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Amazon also makes residential routers in the EERO brand. I heard they had
> then removed their AQM (in a new product).
>
> Don't know the current state.
>
> But there's institutional knowledge.
>
> Dec 9, 2025 8:48:53 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>
> I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
> FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
> Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave Taht
> here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(
>
> Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
> options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
> like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
> https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>
> One use case from northern canada that I'm aware is the 9am login at
> government offices.  Lots of bandwidth needed to do all that
> ActiveDirectory
> profile replication/update for all the people doing this at the same
> time.
> I've heard stories of it taking an hour for everyone to get logged in.
> AD replication ought to solve this, but apparently, it doesn't for
> reasons I
> don't understand.
>
>
> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>
> microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips.
> There are wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols.
> It's not just the AD lookups, it's filesystem queries as well.
>
>
> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
>
> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
>
> --dave
>
> --
> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
>

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

I don't know anything non public, I got the information by following Dave Täht's work online.

Dec 9, 2025 9:13:32 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>:

> Yeah, eero has (or had?!) a great CAKE implementation. So now they got rid of it? WTH
> 
> Can you share more about it? Even if only privately…
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> In loving memory of Dave Täht: 1965-2025
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 at 9:11 AM, Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com> wrote:
> Amazon also makes residential routers in the EERO brand. I heard they had then removed their AQM (in a new product).
> 
> Don't know the current state.
> 
> But there's institutional knowledge.
> 
> Dec 9, 2025 8:48:53 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
> 
> I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
> FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
> Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave Taht
> here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(
> 
> Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
> options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
> like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
> https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> 
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> 
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> 
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> 
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> 
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> 
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> 
> …
> 
> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
> microsoft protocols are not wan friendly, they do lots of round trips.
> There are wan accelerator middle boxes that short-cut the protocols.
> It's not just the AD lookups, it's filesystem queries as well.
> 
> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
> 
> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
> 
> --dave
> 
> -- 
> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Inemesit Affia]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30982654

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4728289-needing-clarification-on-eero-models-for-fttc-and-fttp.html


https://lwn.net/Articles/873848/


Here are some links to clarify/muddy the water as appropriate. Like I said earlier, I don't know the current reality, but there are people who know it's a thing at Amazon


Dec 9, 2025 9:21:15 AM Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>:

> I don't know anything non public, I got the information by following Dave Täht's work online.
> 
> Dec 9, 2025 9:13:32 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>:
> 
>> Yeah, eero has (or had?!) a great CAKE implementation. So now they got rid of it? WTH
>> 
>> Can you share more about it? Even if only privately…
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>> In loving memory of Dave Täht: 1965-2025
>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 at 9:11 AM, Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Amazon also makes residential routers in the EERO brand. I heard they had then removed their AQM (in a new product).
>> 
>> Don't know the current state.
>> 
>> But there's institutional knowledge.
>> 
>> Dec 9, 2025 8:48:53 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>> 
>> I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
>> FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
>> Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave Taht
>> here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(
>> 
>> Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
>> options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
>> like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
>> https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>> 
>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>> 
>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> 
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> 
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> 
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> 
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Michael Richardson wrote:
>> 
>> …
>> 
>> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>> …
>> 
>> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
>> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
>> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
>> 
>> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
>> 
>> --dave
>> 
>> -- 
>> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
>> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
>> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Frantisek Borsik]

Chatted with an ISP, LibreQoS customer, using eero since forever, this is
what he see:

*"Depends on the models. The eero 5's added CAKE, then the eero 6 and 6+
was FQ-CoDel, I think performance issues, and then the eero7 line is back
to CAKE. I've not heard anything about them removing it."*

It would be really crazy if they would do it. People are using them because
of great mesh AND fixed bufferbloat, for the most part.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 9:29 AM Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30982654
>
>
> https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4728289-needing-clarification-on-eero-models-for-fttc-and-fttp.html
>
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/873848/
>
>
> Here are some links to clarify/muddy the water as appropriate. Like I said
> earlier, I don't know the current reality, but there are people who know
> it's a thing at Amazon
>
>
> Dec 9, 2025 9:21:15 AM Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>:
>
> I don't know anything non public, I got the information by following Dave
> Täht's work online.
>
> Dec 9, 2025 9:13:32 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>:
>
> Yeah, eero has (or had?!) a great CAKE implementation. So now they got rid
> of it? WTH
>
> Can you share more about it? Even if only privately…
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> In loving memory of Dave Täht: 1965-2025
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 at 9:11 AM, Inemesit Affia <inemesitaffia@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Amazon also makes residential routers in the EERO brand. I heard they had
>> then removed their AQM (in a new product).
>>
>> Don't know the current state.
>>
>> But there's institutional knowledge.
>>
>> Dec 9, 2025 8:48:53 AM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>>
>> I can't imagine a situation in which Amazon Leo - without using CAKE or
>> FQ-CoDel - would get good results, as Starlink didn't without FQ-CoDel
>> Hope that they will talk to us, and get help. Sadly, there is no Dave
>> Taht
>> here anymore, to chase them for the good of their users :(
>>
>> Improvements to CAKE are happening; MQ-CAKE (from Toke), some other good
>> options are raising, algorithms like FQ-PIE and PURPE CAKE, improvements
>> like xTCP2, XDP2: I will be talking about it at
>> https://understandinglatency.com - register, if you didn't, yet.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>
>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>>
>>
>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>>
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 2:26 AM David Collier-Brown via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> …
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/25 15:57, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>>
>> …
>>
>>
>> MS is really /really/ bad at handling anything bigger/more-laggy than
>> the original token-ring and ethernet LANs. In the case of SMB, people
>> built local caching/middleware boxes using Samba to get the RTT down.
>>
>> They're the first folks who taught me that it's latency, not bandwidth.
>>
>> --dave
>>
>> --
>> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
>> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
>> davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>>

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[Livingood, Jason]

> do small businesses really need higher speeds than they can get now?

Excellent point. IMO we are in an environment of bandwidth abundance rather than scarcity. In a recent example - at IETF-124 in November, with a peak of 820 devices on the network (much larger than a small biz):

  *   Peak Downstream 1.18 Gbps – mean 241 Mbps

  *
Peak Upstream 468 Mbps – mean 21 Mbps


Jason

[Starlink] Re: Amazon Leo announcing up to 1 Gbps (DOWN) and 400 Mbps (UP)

[David Lang]

Livingood, Jason wrote:

>> do small businesses really need higher speeds than they can get now?
>
> Excellent point. IMO we are in an environment of bandwidth abundance rather than scarcity. In a recent example - at IETF-124 in November, with a peak of 820 devices on the network (much larger than a small biz):

I help run the Southern California Linux Expo and for the 3500 attendees, we 
have had <500Mb (they are upgrading to 1Gb this year)

it fails when an instructor tells a class of 300 people to all download 
some large image at the same time, but otherwise is pretty comfortable.

David Lang