From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 388363B2A4 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from proxy-2.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-2.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [83.61.18.4]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CC7518C034E; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:28:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1644334132; bh=N1w+nSNs2zd1J5z30SgV7xHr1LJhQ7B8O5uiulLkCWk=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=AypcUKQGiN6Y31jgMSDGb5I/4pCJvZVSRnsitvpwhZF2XKBOl1SFb4ecJyTC0vraf 30zsYRKtMfesrJWrzqHy+Z2IujFY4UL/vXDcuihoSEL175lIb00Q0p0g2KZae4d5g7 LI01J8Tl9t7aRcaNoEgW1r3NzuUlZ447ycUm0f2nAVn5FBFzo3qAxVMLzYlwu6IJ5W L3h8eFd/0BckJ2Et0lw9jC2NpqP4z7UDQqlv0SoD9MiV1+VJA+T1DHoL2st0vYjSXC QlVtHsIp9Fjl0tO+cvjvI2LXpH+dpujfZwuPcwCkQpVrCqR+t062GgXVMELhfjzXP2 oyXgbMAKBkbBg== Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:28:43 +0100 From: Mike Puchol To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Christian von der Ropp Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <10acc51c-f00c-02cc-c117-ed6083faf9d0@vdr.net> References: <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> <736pq4q3-q21n-p6rn-9391-o56qn77npn2@ynat.uz> <9383f6d3-b6e3-de25-fee0-4416bd05c030@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <7ffdb646-0d02-c1fa-6857-576c2681490c@falco.ca> <2e2c67c8-839b-e1af-5937-78dab715d482@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <8b7fd197-777d-e963-628d-4cdff7c04380@sokolov.eu.org> <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark> <6b0b3d22-f3e6-a3bd-b04c-af15e5498560@sokolov.eu.org> <07e8f287-3da1-4890-817f-4daf945c8d12@Spark> <10acc51c-f00c-02cc-c117-ed6083faf9d0@vdr.net> X-Readdle-Message-ID: f455b189-bad7-4fa6-8026-4e50f986a22d@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="62028c30_2d517796_40b8" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 15:28:53 -0000 --62028c30_2d517796_40b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Christian, The concern with O3b will be once they launch the inclined orbit mPOWER s= atellites, which will cause inline events outside the GSO arc. Of the oth= er constellations, OneWeb is a concern on Ka band already, but they only = operate above 50=C2=BA North, where Starlink doesn=E2=80=99t really opera= te that much yet, Telesat has launched only one test satellite. It will come for sure, and there will be a requirement for an R=46 conjun= ction event management system. IMHO it=E2=80=99s going to be messy before= it gets better. Best, Mike On =46eb 8, 2022, 14:50 +0100, Christian von der Ropp , w= rote: > And to make things even more complicated Starlink also have to avoid em= issions within a certain angle towards O3b's satellites in MEO (relativel= y easy as they are close to the geostationary arc) and to all its LEO com= petitors with higher ITU priority which would be OneWeb, Telesat Lightspe= ed, KLEO Connect and before all these a potential European LEO constellat= ion should it use Thales' ITU filings (MCSAT-2 LEO-x) - see https://www.i= tu.int/en/ITU-R/space/workshops/danang-2015/Documents/Presentations/Yvon%= 20Henri%20-%20NGSO%20Issues.pdf > > The more satellites these LEO competitors deploy, the more in-line even= ts will occur during which Starlink will have to seize emissions - a so f= ar underestimated issue that could severely impair coverage and service a= vailability. > > Am 08.02.2022 um 11:11 schrieb Ulrich Speidel: > > That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered=21 A quick back= -of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times beyond a S= tarlink LEO satellite, and with =46riis propagation, that's about 23 dB i= n terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much separation as yo= u'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise, not signal ;-) > > Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory leve= l. > > Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north= just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are ot= her issues here also. > > On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote: > > > The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been th= ere for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a disad= vantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to using the = same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starlink uses is the = same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline with a Starlink= satellite and the line towards the GSO arc, the satellite would kill all= satellite TV in your area. > > > > > > The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect= GSO operators, by not generating interference above certain power levels= to or from the GSO arc. =46or Dishy, this means it cannot transmit anywh= ere between the GSO arc elevation and +18=C2=B0 (up), -18=C2=B0 (down). > > > > > > In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43=C2=B0 in elev= ation, thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25=C2=B0 and 61=C2=B0 in el= evation due South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth = of 120=C2=B0, up to around 240=C2=B0. > > > > > > In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes a= ll the way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37=C2=B0 of visible= sky at zenith. > > > > > > Hope this helps=21 > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Mike > > > On =46eb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov , wrote: > > > > On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote: > > > > > the biggest impact on =46iji and Tonga is the GSO protection, w= hich > > > > > takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from East to West= . > > > > > > > > Ho Mike, > > > > > > > > would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more=3F > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > Daniel > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > -- > > **************************************************************** > > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > > > School of Computer Science > > > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > > > The University of Auckland > > ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz > > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/ > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- > M +49.179.3695000 > T +49.7071.538720 > =46 +49.7071.538722 > > E cvdr=40vdr.net > W www.vdr.net > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --62028c30_2d517796_40b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Christian,

The concern with O3b will be once they launch the inclined orbit mPOWER s= atellites, which will cause inline events outside the GSO arc. Of the oth= er constellations, OneWeb is a concern on Ka band already, but they only = operate above 50=C2=BA North, where Starlink doesn=E2=80=99t really opera= te that much yet, Telesat has launched only one test satellite.

It will come for sure, and there will be a requirement for an R=46 conjun= ction event management system. IMHO it=E2=80=99s going to be messy before= it gets better.&=23160;

Best,

Mike
On =46eb 8, 2022, 14:50 +0100, Chri= stian von der Ropp <cvdr=40vdr.net>, wrote:
And to make things even more complicat= ed Starlink also have to avoid emissions within a certain angle towards O= 3b's satellites in MEO (relatively easy as they are close to the geostati= onary arc) and to all its LEO competitors with higher ITU priority which = would be OneWeb, Telesat Lightspeed, KLEO Connect and before all these a = potential European LEO constellation should it use Thales' ITU filings (M= CSAT-2 LEO-x) - see https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/= space/workshops/danang-2015/Documents/Presentations/Yvon%20Henri%20-%20NG= SO%20Issues.pdf

The more satellites these LEO competit= ors deploy, the more in-line events will occur during which Starlink will= have to seize emissions - a so far underestimated issue that could sever= ely impair coverage and service availability.

Am 08.02.2022 um 11:11 schrieb Ulrich = Speidel:

That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered=21 A quick back-= of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times beyond a St= arlink LEO satellite, and with =46riis propagation, that's about 23 dB in= terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much separation as you= 'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise, not signal ;-)

Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level= .

Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north = just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are oth= er issues here also.

On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrot= e:
The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that t= hey have been there for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around= , are at a disadvantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it com= es to using the same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starl= ink uses is the same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline= with a Starlink satellite and the line towards the GSO arc, the satellit= e would kill all satellite TV in your area.

The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect GSO o= perators, by not generating interference above certain power levels to or= from the GSO arc. =46or Dishy, this means it cannot transmit anywhere be= tween the GSO arc elevation and +18=C2=B0 (up), -18=C2=B0 (down).&=23160;=

In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43=C2=B0 in elevation,= thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25=C2=B0 and 61=C2=B0 in elevatio= n due South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120= =C2=B0, up to around 240=C2=B0.

In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all the= way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37=C2=B0 of visible sky a= t zenith.

Hope this helps=21

Best,

Mike
On =46eb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Dani= el AJ Sokolov <daniel=40sokolov= .eu.org>, wrote:
On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote:
the biggest impact on =46iji and Tonga is t= he GSO protection, which
takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from East to West.

Ho Mike,

would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more=3F

Thank you
Daniel
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-- =20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich=40=
cs.auckland.ac.nz =20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac=
.nz/=7Eulrich/
****************************************************************





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