Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of Satellites and Terrestial Networks

[David Lang <david@lang.hm>]

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On Tue, 19 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:

> Le 19/09/2023 à 01:32, Hesham ElBakoury a écrit :
>> Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF should standardize in 
>> priority order  for the integrated NTN terrestrial networks?
>
> Maybe make the NTN networks run IP, and preferably IPv6.  It would be a good 
> step towards integrating with the IP flat networks on the ground.

if you want Starlink to run IPv6, then I think that someone needs to show how it 
would work in such a dynamic environment, with the links/paths changing every 
few minutes, and the ground stations moving as well. I've seen papers on mobile 
IP addresses in the past, but those have all involved so much tunneling that it 
really hasn't mattered if the underlying network is IP or not,

> (yes, I know, many will say that starlink does support IP and even IPv6, but 
> I believe there is no IP in the sats; or maybe I have to read more).

I don't think anyone knows what the in-space protocols are. We know there is not 
in-space routing, so it's no longer a matter of simple bent-pipe relaying, but I 
haven't heard of any leaks/papers on the topic (if there are any, I'm 
interested, but haven't gone digging, counting on others to find them and bring 
it up here :-) )

David Lang

> Alex
>
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Hesham
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>     it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you are
>>     talking to.
>>     You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to the
>>     satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and
>>     unstowing for
>>     example)
>>
>>     I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the
>>     routers run an
>>     old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy software.
>>
>>     David Lang
>>
>>        On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>>
>>      > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200
>>      > From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink
>>     <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net 
>> <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>
>>      > Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>>      > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>      > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of
>>     Satellites and
>>      >      Terrestial Networks
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > Le 16/09/2023 à 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>>      >> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote:
>>      >>>
>>      >>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full computer,
>>     it's
>>      >>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable changes, you
>>      >>> can plug it directly into a router.
>>      >>
>>      >> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - actually
>>     plugged
>>      >> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a noticeably
>>      >> higher rate of disconnects.
>>      >
>>      > It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Ethernet
>>     of the
>>      > DISHY and receive DHCP replies.
>>      >
>>      > But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is
>>     supported, or not.
>>      >
>>      > I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, or
>>      > whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the reply
>>     to DHCP
>>      > request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp
>>     difference
>>      > can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet).
>>      >
>>      > This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an
>>     impact of
>>      > how IPv6  can be, or is, made to work.
>>      >
>>      > This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocates an
>>      > address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular
>>     networks since
>>      > they appeared.  Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in a
>>     3GPP
>>      > network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies about
>>     where
>>      > and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the
>>     problem of
>>      > /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but I do).
>>      >
>>      > So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the same /64
>>      > problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I connect
>>     several
>>      > Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that is,
>>     or not?).
>>      >
>>      > Alex
>>      >
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