[Bloat] Bloat done correctly?

[Benjamin Cronce]

> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
>
> To go off onto a tangent:
>
> On Jun 12, 2015, at 06:45 , Benjamin Cronce wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > Under load while doing P2P(About 80Mb down and 20Mb up just as I
started the test)
> > HFSC: P2P in 20% queue and 80/443/8080 in 40% queue with ACKs going to
a 20% realtime queue
> > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/622452
>
>         I know this is not really your question, but I think the ACKs
should go into the same queue as the matching data packets. Think about it
that way, if the data is delayed due to congestion it does not make too
much sense to tell the sender to send more faster (which essentially is
what ACK prioritization does) as that will not really reduce the congestion
but rather increase it.
>         There is one caveat though: when ECN is used it might make sense
to send out the ACK that will signal the congestion state back to the
sender faster… So if you prioritize ACKs only select those with an ECN-Echo
flag ;)
>         @bloat : What do you all think about this refined ACK
prioritization scheme?
>
> Best Regards
>         Sebastian

Here's a very real problem for many users. If you have a highly
asymmetrical connection like what many DSL and cable users have, doing even
mild uploading can consume enough bandwidth to affect your ability to
upload ACKs, which can negatively affect your downloads.
A regular offender to many is P2P. If you're uploading while downloading on
a 30/3 connection, you may not be able to ACK data fast enough. Of course
this is in of itself mostly an issue caused by bufferbloat and/or lack of
fair queueing.

I guess the real question is, should ACKs be prioritized in a system that
does not exhibit bufferbloat or has fair queuing that allows the ACKs to
not feel the affect of other bandwidth being consumed. With no data to back
this up, my first guess would be it will not matter. If you have no
bufferbloat or you have fair queuing, the ACKs should effectively be sent
nearly immediately.
One case where it could make a difference if where ACKs make up a sizable
portion of the upload bandwidth if download is saturated. An example would
be a hyper-asymmetrical connection like 60/3. In this case, having the ACKs
in a separate queue would actually do the opposite, it would put an upper
bound on how much bandwidth ACKs could consume unless you gave your ACK
queue nearly all of the bandwidth.

In the two examples that I could quickly think of, either it made little
difference or it did the opposite of what your proposed. Of course it
depends on the configuration of the shaping.

Minor side tangent about bloat and ACKs that doesn't really need a
discussion

A few months back I was downloading some Linux torrents when I noticed I
was getting packetloss. I pretty much never get packetloss. I also noticed
that I was receiving a fluctuating 100Mb/s-103Mb/s of ingress on my WAN but
only seeing about 80Mb/s of egress on my LAN. I did a packet capture and
saw something funny. My WAN was sending out a lot of Dup ACK packets.
I grabbed a few of the dest IPs that my firewall was sending to and did a
trace route. Nice low pings for most of the path, then suddenly about 2-3
hops before the seeder in case their ISP's network, I started to see huge
jitter and pings, in the 1sec-3sec range. Cox and Comcast were the two main
offenders but they do represent a sizable portion of the population.
My conclusion was bufferbloat was so bad on their networks that the seeders
where not getting ACKs from me in a timely fashion, so they resent the
segments assuming they were lost. This issue was so bad that about 20Mb/s
of the 100Mb/s was duplicate data segments. I was being DDOS'd by
bufferbloat.

P.S. I removed the emails because I was not absolutely sure if they would
be scrubbed.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat/attachments/20150612/8d93df85/attachment-0002.html>