[Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

[Jim Gettys]

This went by in a previous posting I made:

Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their recent
behavior.  When your customers start funding development of a replacement
(as Comcast has), you know they aren't happy.

So I don't sweat Ookla: helping out the Comcast test effort is probably the
best way to get bufferbloat in front of everyone, and best yet, the code
for the tests is out there.

                                                     - Jim


On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Kathleen Nichols <nichols at pollere.com>
wrote:

>
> I never have any problem hearing you, Dave.
>
> Random stuff in-line.
>
> On 11/27/16 1:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
> > There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few
> > AIs.
> >
> > Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now,
> > or that we've somehow completely burned people out since our heyday
> > in 2012.
> >
> > knock, knock - is this mic on?
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> ...
> >>
> >> My impression is that we have reached a strong technical point. We
> >> have solved some really hard, really significant problems. We are
> >> in a position to Declare Victory on a large part of the problem,
> >> even though there are loads of details to clean up.
>
> I think this is important. Some really good work has been done by a lot of
> people on this list and I have found it interesting, enlightening and
> gratifying to
> put some small bit of a solution out there and have people grab it,
> improve it,
> add to it and make it real. So I think people doing that work should pat
> themselves on the
> back.
> >>
> >> Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word
> >> Out. That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The bad news
> >> is that this is not our collective skill set.
>
> So that's the hard part. Who do you need to Get the Word Out to and what
> do you expect them to do? It sounds like there are some edge router
> improvements coming. It's possible that some companies are using the
> work but they are advertising what it does for the customer not where it
> came from or what it is technically. So that might be a victory.
> >>
> ...
> >> 4) Do we know people at any of the cell phone companies, or router
> >> vendors on whom we could try one last push?
> >>
> >> As part of organizing my thoughts for this note, I also collected
> >> the following ideas from this thread. I add my $0.02 below.
>
> Well, getting cellular networks on board would be a coup.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >>
> >> 1) I don't see that Ookla has much incentive to include bufferbloat
> >> measurements in their test, since they private-label it for lots of
> >> ISPs who (presumably) wouldn't want their CPE to be proven crappy.
> >> ("It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his
> >> salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair)
>
> This is, sadly, likely correct.
> >>
> >> 2) The gamer community seems like such a perfect target for these
> >> improvements. But I fear that the thought leaders are so wrapped up
> >> in the fame generated by their own clever QoS tricks that they
> >> can't believe that fq_codel plus the make-wifi-fast fixes could
> >> possibly address such a complicated subject. (Upton Sinclair,
> >> again.)
>
> But where do you find who benefits and who can have an effect? I don't
> know anything about these traffic patterns but would be interested in
> seeing them if possible.
> >>
> >> 3) On the other hand, Comcast (whose DOCSIS modems *might* someday
> >> support PIE or other SQM) is in a position to benefit from an
> >> increased awareness of the phenomenon, leaving a little ray of
> >> hope.
>
> I don't know. I think it has to be a more serious goal at Comcast. The
> bufferbloat measurement devices they sent out were electrically
> problematic, taking our signal down and reducing bandwidth.  This seems
> like one step above skunkworks.
> ...
> >> 6) It *is* a good idea to think about attracting the attention of
> >> vendors who are hurt by bufferbloat - VoIP, video streaming folks,
> >> gaming companies, etc. But it feels like the wrong end of the lever
> >> - a gaming company can't fix crappy CPE, and they're stuck saying
>
> Yes, it's hard for the victims unless there is an alternative or they
> wield a large amount of coordinated monetary power. The video streaming
> folks, from my measurements, are trashing themselves. Why are they
> creating such huge bursts? Why send out bursts that are going to arrive
> at the same time? This isn't a bufferbloat problem really, it's a clue
> problem.
> >>
> >> 7) Cell phones are another place that obviously would benefit,
> >> although, again, it's hard to break through the notion that "It's
> >> always been like that..."
>
> Yes, but who would benefit? Is it a content company that could put
> pressure on some carrier?
> >>
> >> What else?
>
> This is good thinking, Rich, but the business side of the current
> "ecosystem" seems disincentivized to progress.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
> >
> >
>
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