[Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board

Bob McMahon bob.mcmahon at broadcom.com
Fri Jul 2 00:04:18 EDT 2021


I think even packets are a network construct. End/end protocols don't write
packets.  They mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about
packets. Except for, of course, UDP which you know everything about being
the original designer.

Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to more
of your thoughts on it, metrics, etc.

Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My
systems sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think
end/end queue depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per
inP.) https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/

[rjmcmahon at rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001
TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port
59142 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
20:57:37 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer    Bandwidth    Burst Latency
avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr  Reads=Dist
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078
ms (4769/131082)  104 KByte 3674521  22841=787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015
ms (4768/131086)  102 KByte 3742630  23346=1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033
ms (4769/131046)  103 KByte 3710006  23263=1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008
ms (4768/131082)  102 KByte 3756478  23960=1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008
ms (4769/131061)  102 KByte 3756193  23653=1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007
ms (4768/131072)  101 KByte 3758826  23478=1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009
ms (4768/131096)  102 KByte 3728988  23477=1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010
ms (4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119  23496=1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008
ms (4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089  23652=1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008
ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720  23725=1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028
ms (47685/131072)  101 KByte 3784172
 234891=12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931

[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times
-b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with 192.168.1.94
port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.33 ms) on 2021-07-01
20:57:37 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer    Bandwidth       Write/Err  Rtry
Cwnd/RTT        NetPwr
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4770/0          5
 295K/111 us  5631373
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 295K/120 us  5207927
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 306K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 306K/107 us  5841891
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 306K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 306K/109 us  5733498
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 306K/115 us  5435499
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 306K/111 us  5630192
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 306K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 306K/109 us  5733498

[rjmcmahon at rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=10u
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166
Read buffer size:  128 KByte (Dist bin width=16.0 KByte)
Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=0.010 ms, bins=1000 (clients must use
--trip-times)
TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port
59146 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
21:01:42 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer    Bandwidth    Burst Latency
avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr  Reads=Dist
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101
ms (4769/131072)  100 KByte 3809846  22370=435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1,23:1,35:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/133,Outliers=352,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006
ms (4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733  21762=498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:3,23:1,24:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=458,obl/obu=0/0) (0.235
ms/1625198503.810735)
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009
ms (4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043  22863=528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:3,24:1,27:1,30:1,52:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.515
ms/1625198505.144479)
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007
ms (4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135  22766=472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22:4,23:3,25:1,27:1,29:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=23,obl/obu=0/0) (0.284
ms/1625198505.973695)
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008
ms (4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347  22759=451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22:6,23:4,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/23,Outliers=36,obl/obu=0/0) (0.381
ms/1625198507.119394)
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006
ms (4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720  22661=422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.222
ms/1625198508.350409)
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008
ms (4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779  22723=453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23:1,24:2,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.302
ms/1625198509.416997)
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006
ms (4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060  22923=489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.217
ms/1625198510.34875)
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009
ms (4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477  22677=472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,23:8,24:3,25:2,28:1,37:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/23,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.363
ms/1625198511.392746)
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005
ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997  23174=396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:2
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/20,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.232
ms/1625198512.528385)
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033
ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002
 226681=4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(47685)=15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,21:126,22:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1,49:1,52:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/22,Outliers=279,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)


[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times
-b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with 192.168.1.94
port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.30 ms) on 2021-07-01
21:01:42 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer    Bandwidth       Write/Err  Rtry
Cwnd/RTT        NetPwr
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4770/0          8
 231K/111 us  5631373
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 240K/120 us  5207927
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 257K/114 us  5482029
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 257K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 257K/108 us  5786586
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 257K/136 us  4595230
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 257K/111 us  5631373
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 257K/131 us  4770621
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4769/0          0
 257K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  4768/0          0
 257K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 0.00-10.01 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  47687/0          8
 257K/110 us  5676364
[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$

Bob



On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpreed at deepplum.com> wrote:

> Well, nice that the folks doing the conference  are willing to consider
> that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at
> the physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
>
>
>
> But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality"
> suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the
> hardware or the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*.
>
>
>
> By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the
> fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will likely
> fall into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some
> imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be
> what users actually will do given the chance.
>
>
>
> I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet
> protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize
> ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote
> login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing
> systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then
> trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer,
> because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.
>
>
>
> Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by "the
> network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system design".
> Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want to
> talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all
> times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you
> don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they
> might expect to experience that they don't experience.
>
>
>
> There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network
> experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as
> quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues.
>
>
>
> What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such
> issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses
> to *cooperate* in some way.
>
>
>
> Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and why
> diffserv cannot work.
>
> (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv
> attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never,
> ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the
> IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of
> the so-called end-to-end principle).
>
>
>
> Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the
> underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing.
> Quality can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network
> provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end
> applications to affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly
> getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on
> with the other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.
>
>
>
> This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht at gmail.com>
> said:
>
> > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can
> > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind
> > repetitions of speedtest.
> >
> > For complete details, please see:
> > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/
> >
> > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth)
> > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
> >
> > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days:
> >
> > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
> >
> > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
> >
> > The Program Committee members:
> >
> > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam
> > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff
> > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind,
> > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,
> > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
> >
> > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org.
> >
> > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and
> > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and
> > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience
> > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers
> > understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be
> > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of
> > actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or
> > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus
> > on specific protocol solutions.
> >
> > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend
> > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the
> > form of an Internet-Draft.
> >
> > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the
> > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on
> > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to
> > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will
> > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion
> > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
> >
> > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions
> > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published
> > afterwards.
> >
> > Overview:
> >
> > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress
> > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of
> > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people
> > don’t consider questions such as:
> >
> > What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?
> > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
> > What services can be run by clients of the network?
> > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there
> firewalls?
> > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS?
> > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and
> > authenticity of user communications guarded?
> >
> > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on
> > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to
> > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the
> > right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to
> > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most and at
> > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will
> > give them the best experience."
> >
> >
> > --
> > Latest Podcast:
> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> >
> > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast

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