[Bloat] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board
Dick Roy
dickroy at alum.mit.edu
Fri Jul 2 12:11:17 EDT 2021
Some terminology if one cares:
Segments are transported (Layer 4)
Packets are networked (Layer 3)
Frames are data linked (Layer 2)
and last but not least
Streams: flow over the air (Layer 1)
_____
From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of
Bob McMahon
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 9:04 PM
To: David P. Reed
Cc: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List;
codel at lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet
Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board
I think even packets are a network construct. End/end protocols don't write
packets. They mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about
packets. Except for, of course, UDP which you know everything about being
the original designer.
Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to more of
your thoughts on it, metrics, etc.
Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My
systems sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think end/end
queue depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per inP.)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/
[rjmcmahon at rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port
59142 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
20:57:37 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency
avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=Dist
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078 ms
(4769/131082) 104 KByte 3674521 22841=787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015 ms
(4768/131086) 102 KByte 3742630 23346=1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033 ms
(4769/131046) 103 KByte 3710006 23263=1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008 ms
(4768/131082) 102 KByte 3756478 23960=1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008 ms
(4769/131061) 102 KByte 3756193 23653=1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007 ms
(4768/131072) 101 KByte 3758826 23478=1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009 ms
(4768/131096) 102 KByte 3728988 23477=1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010 ms
(4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119 23496=1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008 ms
(4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089 23652=1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008
ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720 23725=1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028
ms (47685/131072) 101 KByte 3784172
234891=12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931
[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times
-b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with 192.168.1.94 port
5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.33 ms) on 2021-07-01 20:57:37
(PDT)
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry
Cwnd/RTT NetPwr
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 5
295K/111 us 5631373
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
295K/120 us 5207927
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
306K/110 us 5681375
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
306K/107 us 5841891
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
306K/110 us 5681375
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
306K/109 us 5733498
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
306K/115 us 5435499
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
306K/111 us 5630192
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
306K/110 us 5682567
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
306K/109 us 5733498
[rjmcmahon at rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=10u
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166
Read buffer size: 128 KByte (Dist bin width=16.0 KByte)
Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=0.010 ms, bins=1000 (clients must use
--trip-times)
TCP window size: 128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port
59146 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
21:01:42 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency
avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=Dist
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101 ms
(4769/131072) 100 KByte 3809846 22370=435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1,23:1,3
5:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114
:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,1
38:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/133,Outliers=352,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006 ms
(4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733 21762=498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:3,23:1,
24:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=458,obl/obu=0/0) (0.235
ms/1625198503.810735)
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009 ms
(4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043 22863=528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:3,24:1,
27:1,30:1,52:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.515
ms/1625198505.144479)
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007 ms
(4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135 22766=472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22:4,23:3
,25:1,27:1,29:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=23,obl/obu=0/0) (0.284
ms/1625198505.973695)
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008 ms
(4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347 22759=451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22:6,23:4
,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/23,Outliers=36,obl/obu=0/0) (0.381
ms/1625198507.119394)
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006 ms
(4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720 22661=422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.222
ms/1625198508.350409)
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008 ms
(4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779 22723=453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23:1,24:2
,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0)
(0.302 ms/1625198509.416997)
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006 ms
(4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060 22923=489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.217
ms/1625198510.34875)
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009 ms
(4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477 22677=472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,23:8,24:
3,25:2,28:1,37:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/23,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.363
ms/1625198511.392746)
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005
ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997 23174=396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:2
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/20,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.232
ms/1625198512.528385)
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033
ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002
226681=4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(47685)=15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,21:126,2
2:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1,49:1,52:1
,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2
,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140
:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/22,Outliers=279,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)
[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times
-b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with 192.168.1.94 port
5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.30 ms) on 2021-07-01 21:01:42
(PDT)
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry
Cwnd/RTT NetPwr
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 8
231K/111 us 5631373
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
240K/120 us 5207927
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
257K/114 us 5482029
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
257K/110 us 5682567
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
257K/108 us 5786586
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
257K/136 us 4595230
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
257K/111 us 5631373
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
257K/131 us 4770621
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0
257K/110 us 5682567
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0
257K/110 us 5681375
[ 1] 0.00-10.01 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 47687/0 8
257K/110 us 5676364
[rjmcmahon at ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$
Bob
On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpreed at deepplum.com> wrote:
Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider that
quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at the
physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" suggests
that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the hardware or
the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*.
By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the
fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will likely
fall into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some
imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be
what users actually will do given the chance.
I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet
protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize
ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote
login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing
systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then
trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer,
because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.
Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by "the
network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system design".
Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want to
talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all
times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you
don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they
might expect to experience that they don't experience.
There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network
experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as
quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues.
What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such
issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses to
*cooperate* in some way.
Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and why
diffserv cannot work.
(I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv
attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never,
ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the
IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of
the so-called end-to-end principle).
Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the
underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. Quality
can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network provides
some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end applications
to affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly getting
"telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on with the
other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.
This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time.
On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht at gmail.com> said:
> The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can
> move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind
> repetitions of speedtest.
>
> For complete details, please see:
> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/
>
> Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth)
> Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
>
> Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days:
>
> 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
>
> Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
>
> The Program Committee members:
>
> Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam
> Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff
> Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind,
> Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,
> Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
>
> Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org.
>
> Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and
> others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and
> advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience
> based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers
> understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be
> discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of
> actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or
> other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus
> on specific protocol solutions.
>
> The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend
> should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the
> form of an Internet-Draft.
>
> All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the
> workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on
> the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to
> content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will
> have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion
> and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
>
> Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions
> themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published
> afterwards.
>
> Overview:
>
> "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress
> is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of
> the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people
> dont consider questions such as:
>
> What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?
> Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
> What services can be run by clients of the network?
> What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there
firewalls?
> What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS?
> To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and
> authenticity of user communications guarded?
>
> Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on
> measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to
> end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the
> right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to
> focus on the aspects that impacts the users experience most and at
> the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will
> give them the best experience."
>
>
> --
> Latest Podcast:
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
>
> Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>
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