[Bloat] Fwd: [New post] How Good is FWA Wireless?

Wed Feb 8 19:43:59 EST 2023

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Luis A. Cornejo <luis.a.cornejo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As a former T-mobile HSI customer, I can attest the horrible queue management. The deprioritization was so bad that it became basically unusable, even a ping or DNS lookup just lagged. I latched to a tower near the interstate about 2 miles away. I knew when there was an accident at the interstate, my online experience correlated very well.

I ranted over here about how bad just the depriotization could become,
and also pointed to a flaw, I believe, in how long devices hold onto
packets in that case. I fear that when the network is getting toasty,
and comes back online that there is a thundering herd of devices,
enormous backlogs of stale syns, and so on that hit it, and what is in
place is some sort of timed rate limiter to deal with it, not very
well. It is the only explanation I have for seeing pings come back on
1s intervals...

https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/flaws_in_flent/

> This was about a year ago, I do have t-mobile for mobile service, I might try them again since they offer it for $30. Might make an OK backup or second WAN, specially if I can just use my own modem in 5G SA.
>
> Meanwhile, I also have Verizon LTE home internet. Which has been a fairly reliable ~50/3 Mbps. Something changed recently, now I get 100-160 downs 20-30 up. Bloat increases linearly after 100 down, but it is not too bad. After  22 up bloat increases exponentially.

Once you pass the threshold bloat will increase exponentially.

>Luckily CAKE at 100/22 seems to mitigate most of the bloat. I haven’t noticed a slow down. It’s been way more reliable (in terms of bandwidth, latency and availability) than Starlink for me. I’m fairly rural, so that probably has to do with the better experience with Verizon, but the tower is like a year old and has fiber backhaul. It sure beats my former ADSL in price and performance.

As for dealing with the variable rates on both starlink and lte:

I also keep encouraging folk to participate in sebastian´s team on the
cake-autorate stuff: https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate

It may be the only way to get decent latency out of both systems
unless they get their act together.

> If course the wireline providers are complaining since they are taking customers, many that will have a good enough experience that might save them a good bit of money. Business quickly miss their cash cows. Their margins must be very high, access should be cheap, but they love to squeeze a bit too much.

I kind of hope to level the playing field with a set of comparisons
and simulations of various real world behaviors and network
measurement tools via the libreqos.io testbed. Right now this is just
cake, but I have poured simulations through of pie, fq_pie, wifi, etc,
and hope to find a model for lte´s uplink behaviors that is a fit.

https://payne.taht.net/circuit_queue?id=9

Right now, I am re-finding old bugs in cake, and have made a few
optimizations...

>
> Competition works, I hope FWAs eat their lunch.

I hope the FWAs move faster, and in particular, the new mikrotik code
gets on more routers, as well as cake and fq_codel on more
ISP-supplied CPE.

But I really am in this to fix latency on everything... T-mobile, or
Verizon would sell to a lot more home users if they got their bloat
under control. It also really puzzles me that a billing company, with
bandwidth caps, gives me no ability to buy more when I run out.

>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 11:07 AM Sebastian Moeller via Bloat <bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 8 February 2023 17:13:26 CET, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >I do find it odd that the carriers deprioritized home users
>>
>> I would not be amazed if the priority would inversely correlate with expected profit for mobile vs fwa customers and maybe with the availability of competitive broadband access products....
>>
>> (and of course,
>> >insane, that they have such lousy queue management still)
>>
>> That is IMHO bigger issue, even with lower priority competent AQM would result in pretty usable FWA links even if the advertised rates are not reached, but I am preaching to the choire here ;)
>>
>> >
>> >---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> >From: POTs and PANs <donotreply at wordpress.com>
>> >Date: Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 4:35 AM
>> >Subject: [New post] How Good is FWA Wireless?
>> >To: <dave.taht at gmail.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >[image: Site logo image] Doug Dawson, CCG Consulting posted: "T-Mobile got
>> >some bad news recently when the the National Advertising Division (NAD) of
>> >BBB National Programs informed T-Mobile that it could not use the words
>> >“fast” and “reliable” when advertising for its FWA fixed wireless product
>> >that it brands as T-M" POTs and PANs <https://potsandpansbyccg.com> How
>> >Good is FWA Wireless?
>> ><https://public-api.wordpress.com/bar/?stat=groovemails-events&bin=wpcom_email_click&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fpotsandpansbyccg.com%2F2023%2F02%2F08%2Fhow-good-is-fwa-wireless%2F&sr=0&signature=5b16b3947fedc44cc38fd4cbf1398d07&blog_id=49312101&user=97642389&_e=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&_z=z>
>> >
>> >Doug Dawson, CCG Consulting
>> >
>> >Feb 8
>> >
>> ><https://potsandpansbyccg.com/2014/02/18/cellular-is-not-the-rural-broadband-solution/cell-tower/#main>T-Mobile
>> >got some bad news recently when the the National Advertising Division (NAD)
>> >of BBB National Programs informed T-Mobile that it could not use the words
>> >“fast” and “reliable” when advertising for its FWA fixed wireless product
>> >that it brands as T-Mobile Home Internet. This ruling came as a result of a
>> >complaint from Comcast that T-Mobile is overstating the capabilities of the
>> >FWA product in advertising.
>> >
>> >Most large carriers belong to the BBB National Programs as a lower cost way
>> >of mitigating advertising disputes than lawsuits. ISPS agree to go along
>> >with the rulings issued by the group as a condition of joining. However, in
>> >this case, T-Mobile is appealing the decision. The news wasn’t all bad for
>> >T-Mobile since it was ruled that T-Mobile could continue to advertise that
>> >the price of FWA is ‘locked-in” since the company hasn’t raised its rates.
>> >
>> >Anybody who has looked closely at the performance of FWA wireless from
>> >T-Mobile or Verizon would agree with this ruling. The main reason for the
>> >ruling is that the performance of FWA can vary widely. It’s a broadband
>> >product that connects to customers from a cell site, and the distance
>> >between a customer and the cell site makes a big difference in the speed
>> >being delivered. I talked to one customer located near to a T-Mobile tower
>> >who was consistently getting over 200 Mbps download and was really pleased
>> >with the product. But in this same community, customers only a mile or so
>> >away from that same cell tower were getting speeds closer to 50-100 Mbps
>> >and were not as happy with the product. A mile further away and speeds were
>> >not good at all, and I talked to a farmer who sent the receiver back. In a
>> >rural area, a mile isn't very far, and unless there are a lot of towers,
>> >most folks are not getting the advertised fast speeds.
>> >
>> >The one consistent feedback I’ve gotten in talking to FWA customers is that
>> >speeds vary. This is true for all cellular broadband, and cell phone
>> >customers are used to seeing a different number of bars of broadband speed
>> >over time from the same location such as home or the office. Cellular data
>> >speeds vary for a wide variety of reasons like temperature and weather.
>> >
>> >But the biggest reason for the variability is the overall volume of data
>> >being demanded from a given cell site at a given moment. Like most
>> >broadband products, cellular broadband is a shared data product where the
>> >broadband is divvied up among the users at any given time. But unlike
>> >landline broadband networks, a cellular company cannot control the number
>> >of users at a cell site. Since cell phones are mobile, there is no telling
>> >how many people might be demanding a cellular data connection at any given
>> >time.
>> >
>> >FWA has one more limitation in that the cellular carriers have elected to
>> >give first priority to cell phones over FWA customers. This means that when
>> >a cell site gets busy, the carrier will choke the delivered data speeds to
>> >FWA customers in order to deliver the most speed possible to cellular
>> >customers. This makes sense since each big T-Mobile and Verizon have
>> >roughly 100 million cellular customers compared to a few million FWA
>> >customers. They do not want to make cellular customers unhappy with
>> >broadband speeds, and so they throttle FWA when a cell site gets busy.
>> >
>> >T-Mobile doesn’t hide this, and the throttling is discussed in the fine
>> >print when the product is advertised. But that throttling is part of the
>> >reason that T-Mobile can’t describe it’s product as reliable – because at
>> >busy times it isn’t.
>> >
>> >The big selling point for FWA is the low price and I’m sure the price is
>> >what attracted urban customers. The speeds are going to be liked in rural
>> >areas where there are no alternatives, but there is definitely a severe
>> >distance limitation - in a rural area a 50 Mbps connection might be a big
>> >leap up in performance. But the FWA product is a lot slower than cable
>> >company broadband. Households who are heavy broadband users might not like
>> >the slower speeds and the variability. This ruling is telling T-Mobile that
>> >it can’t advertise in a way that makes FWA sound like an equivalent
>> >alternative to cable or fiber broadband, because it isn’t. It’s going to be
>> >interesting to see how T-Mobile adjusts it’s advertising after this ruling.
>> >Comment
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>> >------------------------------
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>> ><https://public-api.wordpress.com/bar/?stat=groovemails-events&bin=wpcom_email_click&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fwordpress.com&sr=1&signature=7e34f99b8a8f60a2979293df01c62e5d&user=97642389&_e=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&_z=z>
>> >[image: Download on the App Store]
>> ><https://public-api.wordpress.com/bar/?stat=groovemails-events&bin=wpcom_email_click&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.wordpress.com%2Fget%3Fcampaign%3Demail_ios_badge&sr=1&signature=fc101427389339164eb9e55ff7135808&user=97642389&_e=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&_z=z>
>> >[image:
>> >Get it on Google Play]
>> ><https://public-api.wordpress.com/bar/?stat=groovemails-events&bin=wpcom_email_click&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.wordpress.com%2Fget%3Fcampaign%3Demail_android_badge&sr=1&signature=41c046cf3e51b3fd0b4cc61664957ed1&user=97642389&_e=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&_z=z>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC