[Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board
Bob McMahon
bob.mcmahon at broadcom.com
Tue Jul 6 16:43:55 EDT 2021
The four part attenuator part would be more interesting to me if it also
had a solid state phase shifters. This allows for testing 2x2 MIMO testing
per affecting the spatial stream eigen vectors/values.
Bob
PS. The price per port isn't competitive. Probably a good idea to survey
the market competition.
On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 6:46 AM Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested to hear wish lists for network testing features. We make
> test equipment, supporting lots
> of wifi stations and a distributed architecture, with built-in udp, tcp,
> ipv6, http, ... protocols,
> and open to creating/improving some of our automated tests.
>
> I know Dave has some test scripts already, so I'm not necessarily looking
> to reimplement that,
> but more fishing for other/new ideas.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On 7/2/21 4:28 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
> > I think we need the language of math here. It seems like the network
> power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and Jaffe in the late 70s, is
> something useful.
> > Effective end/end queue depths per Little's law also seems useful. Both
> are available in iperf 2 from a test perspective. Repurposing test
> techniques to actual
> > traffic could be useful. Hence the question around what exact telemetry
> is useful to apps making socket write() and read() calls.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:
> dave.taht at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to encourage folk
> to
> > both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and
> Deming's
> > work on "total quality management".
> >
> > My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue" is
> aiming
> > for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot of
> > fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing delay, but
> > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user really
> needs
> > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents.
> >
> > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to
> "zen...",
> > lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer hits an
> > insoluble problem.
> > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ <
> https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpreed at deepplum.com
> <mailto:dpreed at deepplum.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to
> consider that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling
> rate at the
> > physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network
> quality" suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet
> isn't the hardware or
> > the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future,
> and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference
> will likely fall
> > into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some
> imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be
> what users
> > actually will do given the chance.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original
> Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to
> optimize ASR33
> > logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote
> login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing
> systems, and
> > "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then trying
> to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, because
> someone
> > thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be
> "provided" by "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument
> in system design".
> > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you
> want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at
> all times,
> > now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you
> don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they
> might expect to
> > experience that they don't experience.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved
> "network experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such
> issues as quality,
> > so applications could avoid having to solve such issues.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve"
> such issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different
> uses to
> > *cooperate* in some way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing
> them, and why diffserv cannot work.
> > >
> > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of
> diffserv attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics,
> but never, ever
> > explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what
> the IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation
> of the
> > so-called end-to-end principle).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there,
> multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole
> different thing. Quality can
> > be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network
> provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end
> applications to
> > affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly getting
> "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on with the
> other
> > end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your
> time.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <
> dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>> said:
> > >
> > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally,
> we can
> > > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless,
> blind
> > > > repetitions of speedtest.
> > > >
> > > > For complete details, please see:
> > > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ <
> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/>
> > > >
> > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere
> On Earth)
> > > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
> > > >
> > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over
> three days:
> > > >
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
> > > >
> > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
> > > >
> > > > The Program Committee members:
> > > >
> > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam
> > > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen,
> Geoff
> > > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja
> Kuehlewind,
> > > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,
> > > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
> > > >
> > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org
> <mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org>.
> > > >
> > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source
> community and
> > > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and
> > > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect
> experience
> > > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The
> organizers
> > > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are
> unlikely to be
> > > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of
> > > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies,
> products, or
> > > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not
> focus
> > > > on specific protocol solutions.
> > > >
> > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend
> > > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may
> take the
> > > > form of an Internet-Draft.
> > > >
> > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published
> on the
> > > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite
> based on
> > > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according
> to
> > > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee
> will
> > > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster
> discussion
> > > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
> > > >
> > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual
> sessions
> > > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be
> published
> > > > afterwards.
> > > >
> > > > Overview:
> > > >
> > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of
> progress
> > > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole
> measure of
> > > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus,
> people
> > > > don’t consider questions such as:
> > > >
> > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> > > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?
> > > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
> > > > What services can be run by clients of the network?
> > > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are
> there firewalls?
> > > > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such
> as DNS?
> > > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and
> > > > authenticity of user communications guarded?
> > > >
> > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on
> > > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties,
> including to
> > > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure
> of the
> > > > right metrics will allow service providers and network
> operators to
> > > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most
> and at
> > > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service
> that will
> > > > give them the best experience."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Latest Podcast:
> > > >
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> <https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> >
> > > >
> > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:
> Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel <
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel>
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Latest Podcast:
> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> <https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> >
> >
> > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> > Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:
> Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast <
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast>
> >
> >
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>
>
> --
> Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com>
> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
>
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