[LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Bloat] [Rpm] On FiWi

Tue Mar 14 20:11:00 EDT 2023

This isn't last mile nor mesh. It's last meters. The AP/STA power asymmetry shows that a low power STA can reach an AP, but the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has to halt. It's like a person in a large conference room where one person with a megaphone is yelling to someone distant (and that person doesn't have a megaphone to respond.) Better if everyone reduced their energy to just enough and get rid of all megaphone. Reduce AP/STA density which is what drives excessive queuing delays.

The free space loss works in the advantage in this model. The trick is structured fiber. But to what exactly?

The problem with structured wiring before was that nobody wanted to plug into a wall jack or nobody wants to be on a leash. 

Look up. How many led lights are over our heads in every space? Electric to photon conversion is happening. We don't blast illumination anymore, either. Semiconductor mfg is changing everything. Best to embrace it vs adding another part to Frankenstein.

Bob

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On Mar 14, 2023, 4:30 PM, at 4:30 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>Let's remember some of the reasons why a lot of wireless-last-mile and
>mesh
>networking plans have failed to date.
>
>Most people who hand-wave about wireless _still_ don't understand
>Fresnel
>zones.
>Most don't account for the possibility of multipath.
>Or the hidden transmitter problem.
>Or absorption.
>Or noise.
>
>Spread spectrum does not cure all ills. You are *trading* bandwidth for
>processing gain.
>You also trade digital modulations that reach incredibly low s/n for
>bandwidth.
>You can only extract so much of your link budget from processing or
>efficient modulation. Many modern systems already operate at that
>point.
>
>All usable spectrum has been allocated at any particular time. At least
>50%
>is spent on supporting legacy systems.
>
>Your greatest spectrum availability will be at the highest possible
>frequency, just because of 1/f. There your largest consideration will
>be
>absorption.
>
>    Thanks
>
>    Bruce
>
>
>
>On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:30 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> The design has to be flexible so DIY w/local firewall is fine.
>>
>> I'll disagree though that early & late majority care about firewalls.
>> They want high-quality access that is secure & private. Both of these
>> require high skill network engineers on staff. DIY is hard here.
>> Intrusion detection systems, etc. are non-trivial. The days of
>broadcast
>> NFL networks are over.
>>
>> I disagree to with nobody wanting to pay for quality access to
>knowledge
>> based networks. Not that many years ago, nobody wanted to pay to
>teach
>> women to read either. Then, nobody wanted to pay for university. I
>grew
>> up in the latter and figured out that I needed come up with payment
>> somehow to develop my brain. Otherwise, I was screwed.
>>
>> So, if it's a chatGPT, advertising system - sure wrong market. Free
>> shit, even provided by Google, is mostly shit.
>>
>> Connect to something real without the privacy invasions, no queueing,
>> etc. I think it's worth it in spades despite the idea that we
>shouldn't
>> invest so people, regardless of gender, etc. can learn to read.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> > end users are still going to want their own router/firewall. 
>That's
>> > my point, I don't see how you can have that on-prem firewall while
>> > having a remote radio that's useful.
>> >
>> > I would adamantly oppose anyone I know passing their firewall off
>to
>> > the upstream vendor.   I run an MSP and I would offer a customer to
>> > drop my services if they were to buy into something like this on
>the
>> > business side.
>> >
>> > So I really only see this sort of concept for campus networks where
>> > the end users are 'part' of the entity.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:14 PM Robert McMahon
>> > <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It's not  discrete routers. It's more like a transceiver. WiFi is
>> >> already splitting at the MAC for MLO. I perceive two choices for
>the
>> >> split, one at the PHY DAC or, two, a minimalist 802.3 tunneling of
>> >> 802.11 back to the FiWi head end. Use 802.3 to leverage merchant
>> >> silicon supporting up to 200 or so RRHs or even move the baseband
>DSP
>> >> there. I think a split PHY may not work well but a thorough eng
>> >> analysis is still warranted.
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Get BlueMail for Android
>> >> On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:54 AM, dan <dandenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  You could always do it yourself.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  Most people need high skilled network engineers to provide them
>IT
>> >>>> services. This need is only going to grow and grow. We can help
>by
>> >>>> producing better and simpler offerings, be they DIY or by
>service
>> >>>> providers.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone development
>because he
>> >>>> hated "the orifices." Probably time for many of us to revisit
>our
>> >>>> belief set. Does it move the needle, even if imperfectly?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment. Who does it
>is
>> >>>> secondary.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  Bob
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> most people are unwilling to pay for those services also lol.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't see the paradigm of discreet routers/nat per prem anytime
>> >>> soon.  If you subtract that piece of it then we're basically just
>> >>> talking XGSPON or similar.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Bruce Perens K6BP
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