[NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

Thu Feb 29 17:50:41 EST 2024

> On 29. Feb 2024, at 18:26, Lee via Nnagain <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>> 
>> He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
> 
> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the audience:
> 
> ABOUT APRICOT
> 
> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference,
> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own
> human networking.
> 
> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end of
> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend or
> take the Internet in a different direction?"
> 
> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
> default.
> 
> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
> at large?

At least the EU sees it that way:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015R2120
An internet access service provides access to the internet, and in principle to all the end-points thereof, irrespective of the network technology and terminal equipment used by end-users. However, for reasons outside the control of providers of internet access services, certain end points of the internet may not always be accessible. Therefore, such providers should be deemed to have complied with their obligations related to the provision of an internet access service within the meaning of this Regulation when that service provides connectivity to virtually all end points of the internet. Providers of internet access services should therefore not restrict connectivity to any accessible end-points of the internet.

So you need to at least try... not sure about other jurisdictions.

>  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
> to connect to the global Internet).
> 
> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within
> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
> server and
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
> 4  * * *
> 5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
> 6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
> 
> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  8.297
> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
> 6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
> 7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
> 8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
> 9  * * *
> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
> 
> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
> "fast lane" getting to me?
> 
> and just for chuckles..
> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
> 2001:dd8:f::1
> 
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
> 4  * * *
> 5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
> 6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
> 7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
> 10.704 ms *
> 8  * * *
> 9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
> 10  * * *
> 11  * * *
> 12  * * *
> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
> 
> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)

On a direct fiber path these 231ms of RTT would allow for ~231*100 = 23100 Km or more than half around the earth...
But given how weird routing can get these 23Mm might end up just next door... (for a time the Swiss ISP Init7 had some european traffc go via Ashburn VA, to make a point)

Regards
	Sebastian

> 
> Regards,
> Lee
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