[NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[rjmcmahon]

Van Jacobson had a talk about content networking in 2012. His 
perspective is from a network view.

https://youtu.be/Bc-4PJPxfVQ?feature=shared

TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS 
and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that 
stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights. 
And lots of case law. The biggest "affiliates" with access to content 
where in NYC, hence that's why they're there.

A digression: It is interesting that Comcast is in Philly, though 
Comcast bought 30 Rock in NYC. The same Rockefeller that was the richest 
man to ever walk the planet. Ralph Roberts and Comcast origins came 
through Tulepo, Mississippi. Never bet against those who make things 
work for poorer communities. They most always win in the long run. 
Colleges that have an origin story of a YMCA sign (vs a $305M data 
center landmark building are ones not to bet against either. Boston 
really should lead the world in real broadband, which includes FiWi, by 
my judgment.)

Today majors with mail, social networks, etc. have basically skirted 
copyrights in the transition from broadcast to unicast. And are doing 
the same with so-called generative AI. Of course, they and the end 
device mfgs are going to use encryption to control the content. Less 
case law required.

The whole theory presented by Geoff of going back to a TV model is only 
true if we accept that we can't pay for digital things, rather it has to 
be paid from trillion dollar+ ad budgets. More Cheez Whiz so-to-speak 
but targeted. I like blue fake cheez so I'll get that.

The idea that ten CDNs are going to dominate is a bit silly to me. 
Setting up servers is easier and easier. It's also why companies like 
Cloudflare are giving away QUIC stacks so they can be the CDN point that 
decrypts. I'm skeptical that the digital world is going to stop at 
HTTP3/QUIC. TCP seems good to me for many things, like new apps that 
don't need a CDN encrypt-er for ad delivery. Today's technology may not 
map to next week, particularly if it's all software.

My take is that the innovation in sw & devices has been basically 
stalled since the mobile phone become the common person's computer and 
Steve Jobs passed. People are being trained on substandard devices and 
substandard mobile networks that, yes, are basically provided by the 
RBOCs who renamed themselves. The richest technologists tend to focus on 
data centers and don't want to make products for the common person. Just 
another epitaph per Thomas Gray and his Churchyard elegy.

I think we are in a state of what's old is new again. Not all that 
innovative (though does make for trips to Thailand and talks about 
elephants I guess.) I don't think we have to repeat history all the 
time. Though behaviors like wars over religious beliefs does suggest the 
human condition struggles to overcome historical cultural values, which 
much of the time should be abandoned.

We get to choose our epitaphs, not so much in words, but more so in our 
actions. I hope for our kids sake we each and all choose well. Pay a 
woman an honest pay for her work and don't ask advertisers to respect 
privacy and pay for things at the same time. Choosy mothers choose Jif 
no more.

Bob
> Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything
> changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television
> rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap
> operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's
> also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid
> thing, again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality
> content is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's
> on us and our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We
> said goodbye to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they
> would ever pay one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the
> young execs said, "No. I don't see why I would have to."
> 
> Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and
> social affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This
> includes in home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a
> house isn't for a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's
> called, is not only for a humans directly either, at least not per our
> very limited 5 sensory system and our error prone brains.
> 
> Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard
> work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile
> infrastructure built for HBO and NFL.
> 
> Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about
> some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart
> phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's
> about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that
> entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like
> linguistics come to mind.
> 
> Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future
> other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody
> decides to actually innovate.
> 
> Just my $0.02,
> Bob
>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain
>> <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>>> >
>>> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>>> >
>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
>>> 
>>> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the 
>>> audience:
>> 
>> 
>>> ABOUT APRICOT
>>> 
>>> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet 
>>> conference,
>>> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
>>> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
>>> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
>>> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their 
>>> own
>>> human networking.
>>> 
>>> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end 
>>> of
>>> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
>>> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend 
>>> or
>>> take the Internet in a different direction?"
>> 
>> I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a
>> content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications
>> are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached.
>> 
>>> 
>>> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
>>> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
>>> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
>>> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
>>> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
>>> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
>>> default.
>> 
>> So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were
>> silently grinding their teeth?
>> 
>>> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
>>> at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
>>> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
>>> to connect to the global Internet).
>>> 
>>> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays 
>>> within
>>> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
>>> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
>>> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
>>> server and
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
>>> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
>>> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
>>>  4  * * *
>>>  5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
>>>  6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
>>> 
>>> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>>> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>>> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  
>>> 8.297
>>> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
>>>  6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
>>>  7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
>>>  8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
>>>  9  * * *
>>> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
>>> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
>>> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
>>> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
>>> 
>>> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
>>> "fast lane" getting to me?
>>> 
>>> and just for chuckles..
>>> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
>>> 2001:dd8:f::1
>> 
>> Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the
>> internet than it is today.
>> 
>> QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of
>> 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc.
>> 
>>> 
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
>>> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
>>> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
>>>  4  * * *
>>>  5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
>>>  6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
>>>  7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
>>> 10.704 ms *
>>>  8  * * *
>>>  9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
>>> 10  * * *
>>> 11  * * *
>>> 12  * * *
>>> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
>>> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
>>> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
>>> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
>>> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
>>> 
>>> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Lee
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