[Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

Tue Sep 5 12:15:16 EDT 2023

I wonder what oleg thinks the starlink repairability index is?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:46 AM David Fernández via Starlink <
starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give
> for Internet access, which are built for that:
> https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment
>
> France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know
> better what are you buying:
> https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite
>
> Then, there is the one from iFixit:
>
> https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index
>
> Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals
> all around the world.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400
> > From: dan <dandenson at gmail.com>
> > To: Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Rpm <rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> >       <libreqos at lists.bufferbloat.net>, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>,
> >       Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>,  bloat
> >       <bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net>, David Lang <david at lang.hm>
> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat]  [LibreQoS] On FiWi
> > Message-ID:
> >       <
> CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
> >>
> >> > <rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference
> >> center, they
> >>
> >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the
> >> place is
> >>
> >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with
> >> users, the
> >>
> >> >> entire network collapses.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse
> environments,
> >> so it's
> >>
> >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and
> >> louder if
> >>
> >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and
> >> reduces the
> >>
> >> >> available airtime.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed
> over
> >> 100 APs
> >>
> >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the
> >> attendees
> >>
> >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could
> be
> >> re-used
> >>
> >> >> more readily.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
> >>
> >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
> >>
> >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
> >>
> >>
> >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people
> >> commenting on
> >>
> >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't
> >> get good
> >>
> >> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think this is what you mean
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
> >> you do not need the latest
> >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
> >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
> >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
> >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
> >> reflashed.
> >>
> >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
> >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
> >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
> >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
> >>
> >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
> >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
> >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
> >> supply!
> >>
> >>
> >> > Did you get any good stats?
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Run cake anywhere?
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but
> >> with wifi
> >>
> >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the
> fewest
> >> possible
> >>
> >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for
> >> your
> >>
> >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection
> to
> >> your
> >>
> >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter
> and
> >> airtime
> >>
> >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that
> it's
> >>
> >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas).
> >> Wire/fiber for the
> >>
> >> >> uplink is much better.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> David Lang
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
> >>
> >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house
> is a
> >> huge
> >>
> >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try
> to
> >>
> >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds
> >> into
> >>
> >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with
> >> >>> output
> >>
> >> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels
> 50ft
> >> away
> >>
> >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb'
> >> model,
> >>
> >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it
> >> >>> requires
> >>
> >> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure
> >> today and
> >>
> >> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access
> SSID
> >>
> >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with
> better
> >> (and
> >>
> >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall
> off
> >> prem
> >>
> >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a
> home
> >> is
> >>
> >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems
> that
> >> are
> >>
> >> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died
> out
> >> of
> >>
> >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline
> network.  I
> >> have
> >>
> >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model
> works
> >>
> >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so
> I'm
> >>
> >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have
> 802.11n
> >>
> >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This
> >> model,
> >>
> >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or
> >> WiFi7
> >>
> >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and
> deployable
> >> by
> >>
> >> >>> consumers setup.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
> >>
> >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's
> >> >>> in
> >>
> >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of
> >> unfrastructure
> >>
> >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired,
> security
> >> and
> >>
> >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated
> >> >>> by
> >>
> >> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and
> >> >>>> very
> >>
> >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color
> coded
> >> to
> >>
> >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by
> installers
> >>
> >> >>>> per those chanspecs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY
> >> >>>> rates
> >>
> >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
> >>
> >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
> >> isn't
> >>
> >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a
> >> >>>> dog
> >>
> >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from
> >> >>>> block
> >>
> >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
> >>
> >> >>>> systems, etc.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
> >> and
> >>
> >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the
> RRH
> >>
> >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better
> than
> >>
> >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades.
> Congestion?
> >> Add
> >>
> >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
> >>
> >> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> Bob
> >>
> >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
> >>
> >> >>>>> <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>>>
> >>
> >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation
> >> >>>>>> has
> >>
> >> >>>>>> to halt.
> >>
> >> >>>>>
> >>
> >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> >>
> >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> >>
> >> >>>>> room.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> >> Bloat mailing list
> >>
> >> >> Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> >> Rpm mailing list
> >>
> >> >> Rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>
> >
> > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially
> > poorly made.  Ie, engineered for our disposable market.  Lots of netgear
> > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if
> that,
> > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed
> them.
> >
> >
> > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give
> > them longer life.  To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these
> items
> > from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca4404e/attachment.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37
> > ****************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230905/160bb6a5/attachment-0001.html>