[Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of Satellites and Terrestial Networks

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 19/09/2023 à 02:36, Hesham ElBakoury a écrit :
[...]

> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 5:31 PM David Lang <david at lang.hm
[...]

> Starlink is just another IP path,

Yes.

For IPv6 it might not be that simple.  There can be things suggested to
starlink to implement, such as to make it better from an IPv6
standpoint.  That includes, and is not limited to, this /64 aspect.

For IP in general (be it IPv4 or IPv6), as long as starlink stays
closed, there might be no interest to suggest anything about IP that
they have not already thought of.

IF on the other hand, starlink feels a need to interoperate, then we can
discuss.

It is possible that starlink does not feel any need to interoperate now.
  At that point, the need to interoperate might come as a mandate from
some outside factors.  Such factors could be the public-private
cooperations.  Other factors could be partnerships that appear when some
organisations feel the need to cooperate.  I will not speculate when,
but it happens.

Assuming that such openness appears, with a need to interoperate, then
there certainly will be perspective developped where Starlink is not
just another IP path.

> all the tools that you use with any other ISP work on that path (or
> are restricted like many other consumer ISPs with dynamic addressing,
> no inbound connections, no BGP peering, etc. No reason that the those
> couldn't work, SpaceX just opts not to support them on consumer
> dishes)

But, these other ISPs (not Starlink) are all standardized.

> I'll turn the question back to you, what is the problem that you 
> think is there that needs to be solved?

Here is one, but there are potentially more.  I would not close the door 
to searching them.

I dont have DISHY, so no first hand experience.

But I suspect the IPv6 it supports it is an IPv6 encapsulated in IPv4. 
That adds to latency, not to say bufferbloat.  It brings in a single 
point of failure too (if it fails, then all fails).

Then, when they'll want to remove that they'd hit into the /64 issue.

Alex
> 
> David Lang
> 
>> Thanks, Hesham
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink < 
>> starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
> <mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>> it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you
> are talking
>>> to. You get the network connection while the dishy is not 
>>> connected
> to the
>>> satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and
> unstowing
>>> for example)
>>> 
>>> I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the
> routers run
>>> an old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy
> software.
>>> 
>>> David Lang
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200 From: Alexandre Petrescu 
>>>> via Starlink
> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net 
> <mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>>
>>>> Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu at gmail.com
> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
> <mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration 
>>>> of
>>> Satellites and
>>>> Terrestial Networks
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le 16/09/2023 à 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>>>>> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full
> computer, it's
>>>>>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable
> changes, you
>>>>>> can plug it directly into a router.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - 
>>>>> actually
> plugged
>>>>> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a 
>>>>> noticeably higher rate of disconnects.
>>>> 
>>>> It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the 
>>>> Ethernet
> of the
>>>> DISHY and receive DHCP replies.
>>>> 
>>>> But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is
> supported, or
>>> not.
>>>> 
>>>> I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, 
>>>> or whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the 
>>>> reply
> to DHCP
>>>> request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp
> difference
>>>> can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet).
>>>> 
>>>> This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an
> impact of
>>>> how IPv6  can be, or is, made to work.
>>>> 
>>>> This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who
>>>> allocates an address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP
>>>> cellular
> networks since
>>>> they appeared.  Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in
> a 3GPP
>>>> network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies
> about where
>>>> and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the
> problem of
>>>> /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but 
>>>> I
> do).
>>>> 
>>>> So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the
> same /64
>>>> problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I
> connect several
>>>> Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that 
>>>> is, or
>>> not?).
>>>> 
>>>> Alex
>>>> 
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>> 
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