From: bob.mcmahon@umbernetworks.com
To: David Collier-Brown <davec-b@rogers.com>
Cc: codel@lists.bufferbloat.net,
Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
Jiml <jiml@quicksmart.com>,
Igor Aleinikov <igor.aleinikov@adnacom.com>,
"Dave.seddon Ca" <dave.seddon.ca@gmail.com>,
Shotaro Saito <ssaito@megachips.com>
Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Codel] Re: [Bloat] Re: [Rpm] Re: Re: [Cake] "Fi-Wi is a new forwarding plane for wireless" - Bob McMahon
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2026 20:40:51 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <16114610c7c4b11aec555c9eee2cd31e@umbernetworks.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e68abec2-6fd8-4fc4-ad26-5ca10859551c@rogers.com>
>
> I believe you've just described a load-dependent queuing center. I
> don't /personally/ know what to do to mitigate them, but the
> queuing-networks mathies do.
>
Dave,
Queuing theory describes the symptom, but MCS selection is a
feedback-control problem.
Every AP is running a hidden controller with a small local state vector.
When loss occurs, that controller cannot reliably distinguish weak
signal, hidden-node collision, OBSS interference, aggregation cost, or
airtime overload. Those are different failure modes, but they can
collapse to the same local observation: retries, missed ACKs, and
degraded service time.
The wrong control action can make the system worse. Lowering MCS may be
correct for weak signal, but it is harmful when the real problem is
hidden-node collision or airtime saturation. Lower MCS increases airtime
occupancy, longer airtime increases collision exposure, and more
collisions drive more retries and more fallback. That is an unstable
discrete-time control loop: a pole near or outside the unit circle in
the z-plane.
There are also two different control objectives. A capacity-optimized
controller maximizes delivered bits per second over an averaging window.
A latency-optimized controller minimizes service-time variance and tail
delay under load. Those optima are not the same. Larger aggregates,
aggressive MCS selection, and retry persistence can improve average
throughput while worsening tail latency. The AP firmware may be doing
exactly what it was designed to do, but it is optimizing the wrong cost
function for user experience.
So yes, there is a load-dependent service center, but the service
function is being created by an opaque feedback controller inside the
AP. Queueing math can characterize the result. Control theory explains
why the service center becomes unstable.
Fi-Wi changes the control problem by increasing observability and
changing the objective function. The concentrator has a richer state
vector: per-STA PHY state, per-RRH receive visibility, retry
probability, SINR, service-time history, aggregation cost, and WAN/WLAN
congestion state. That lets the controller distinguish the cause of
service-time variance before choosing the control action.
An autonomous AP cannot expand its state vector or change the
building-wide cost function without a fronthaul. The observability
constraint is architectural.
Bob
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2026-06-09 3:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 40+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2026-05-14 14:40 [Make-wifi-fast] "Fi-Wi is a new forwarding plane for wireless" - Bob McMahon Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-14 17:08 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Cake] " David Lang
2026-05-14 15:20 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-14 19:38 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-14 19:55 ` David Lang
2026-05-15 11:11 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-15 13:57 ` David Lang
2026-05-15 14:18 ` David Lang
2026-05-15 15:17 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-19 13:52 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Bloat] " Livingood, Jason
2026-05-19 18:59 ` David Lang
2026-05-19 22:45 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-21 19:42 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-21 20:02 ` dan
2026-05-22 16:36 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Rpm] " Robert McMahon
2026-05-23 2:18 ` dan
2026-05-23 16:36 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-23 22:12 ` dan
2026-05-24 20:06 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-24 21:57 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-05-25 5:43 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-25 6:58 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Codel] " Sebastian Moeller
2026-05-25 12:45 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-05-25 13:36 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Codel] " Sebastian Moeller
2026-06-07 6:15 ` Frantisek Borsik
2026-06-07 9:03 ` Sebastian Moeller
2026-06-07 10:19 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Bloat] Re: [Codel] [Rpm] " David Lang
2026-06-07 18:10 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-06-07 18:30 ` dan
2026-06-07 19:10 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-06-08 0:29 ` dan
2026-06-08 2:55 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-06-08 4:06 ` David Lang
2026-06-08 6:26 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2026-06-08 3:59 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Bloat] " David Lang
2026-06-08 5:18 ` bob.mcmahon
2026-06-08 6:53 ` David Lang
2026-06-08 10:29 ` Frantisek Borsik
[not found] ` <e68abec2-6fd8-4fc4-ad26-5ca10859551c@rogers.com>
2026-06-09 3:40 ` bob.mcmahon [this message]
2026-06-07 6:49 ` David Lang
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