[Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] Marketing problems

Sebastian Moeller moeller0 at gmx.de
Sun Jul 27 09:21:37 EDT 2014

Hi Jonathan,

On Jul 27, 2014, at 15:00 , Jonathan Morton <chromatix99 at gmail.com> wrote:

> A marketing number?  Well, as we know, consumers respond best to "bigger is better" statistics. So anything reporting delay or ratio in the ways mentioned so far is doomed to failure - even if we convince the industry (or the regulators, more likely) to adopt them.

	I still have hope that educating the end users is the best strategy.

> Another problem that needs solving is that marketing statistics tend to get gamed a lot.  They must therefore be defined in such a way that gaming them is difficult without actually producing a corresponding improvement in the service.  That's similar in nature to a security problem, by the way.

	Easy just report mean latency increase for a fixed number of measurements (say 100) and also report the standard deviation, and teach the users both numbers need to stay small.

> I have previously suggested defining a "responsiveness" measurement as a frequency. This is the inverse of latency, so it gets bigger as latency goes down. It would be relatively simple to declare that responsiveness is to be measured under a saturating load.
> Trickier would be defining where in the world/network the measurement should be taken from and to.

	If responsiveness is to be measured under load, there is only one reasonable location for the test server, directly upstream of the CPE. All networks are oversubscribed, especially home networks. Having all the users on a node do full saturation tests at the same time (or even enough of those overlapping in time) is going to expose that (usually un-problematic) oversubscription in a way an ISP can not accept as a public benchmark… For DSL the link saturation would also only affect the line currently testing its speed, leaving all other users on the node alone. For setups where already the first access link is shared like cable or GPON the congestion can not be fully hidden (though ameliorated by staggering the measurements), but at least uplink saturation can be avoided…

> An ISP which hosted a test server on its internal network would hold an unfair advantage over other ISPs, so the sane solution is to insist that test servers are at least one neutral peering hop away from the ISP.

	Again we very much would expose the oversubscription of the ISP’s uplink to the peering point, burning good bandwidth for what gain? (I know for what but how would you convince an ISP that it is in their interest as well?)

> ISPs that are geographically distant from the nearest test server would be disadvantaged, so test servers need to be provided throughout the densely populated parts of the world - say one per timezone and ten degrees of latitude if there's a major city in it.

	The fewer test servers the worse the issue, if at all we need CDNs to distribute the traffic caused by potentially the whole internet’s endnotes doing these tests repeatedly :) .

> At the opposite end of the measurement, we have the CPE supplied with the connection. That will of course be crucial to the upload half of the measurement.
> While we're at it, we could try redefining bandwidth as an average, not a peak value.

	I think that Neil and Martin are working hard to teach us that averages are not telling the right story… So maybe lowest 5% quantile of latency and bandwidth per months, 

> If the ISP has a "fair usage cap" of 300GB per 30 days, then they aren't allowed to claim an average bandwidth greater than 926kbps. National broadband availability initiatives can then be based on that figure.

	Question would the proposed tests count against the CAP? Also that assumes that not having caps is in the interest of the state? If that would be the case legislators could have simple disallowed them?

Best Regards

> - Jonathan Morton

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