[Cerowrt-devel] a smart SFP

Dave Taht dave.taht at gmail.com
Sat Jan 15 10:32:33 EST 2022 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Jonas Mårtensson
<martensson.jonas at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >  Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging).
>
> GPON loss budget is 28 dB and typical insertion losses for 1:32 and 1:64 splitters are 17 dB and 21 dB. This leaves 11 dB or 7 dB for splices, connectors and fiber losses. I don't think it's common to have end-users cleaning and plugging in the fiber, this is done by the ISP technician at installation.
>
> > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those.
>
> I agree with all these points. It may be better to look at ISPs that are known to only use PON, such as Google Fiber. Here are some recent tests that all show similar and interesting bufferbloat behaviour on the uplink:
>
> https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70320015

This is gfiber. We didn't so far as I remember get fq_codel going on
the uplink there (just the wifi)

I don't know anybody anymore over there.

> https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346586
> https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346578
>
> /Jonas
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jonas,
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 14, 2022, at 11:44, Jonas Mårtensson <martensson.jonas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > >  getting gpon more right has increasingly been on my mind
>> >
>> > I think more right is to not turn the fiber into a shared medium in the first place but since gpon is so popular, improving it seems like a nice goal.
>> >
>> > > Nobody in their right mind is going to hook up 128 terminalt to one OLT port, I hope...
>> >
>> > Well, sharing one OLT port between many terminals is kind of the (only) advantage of PON, although split ratios of 32 or 64 are more typical. But often it's the loss budget that limits the ratio.
>>
>>         Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging).
>>
>>
>> >
>> > >  Fist question might to be "how broken is GPON/XGPON" to start with, no?
>> >
>> > Looking at dslreports bufferbloat results for fiber, there are many samples with >250ms latency on the uplink. Unfortunately, this graph doesn't show results for 500Mbit/s or 1Gbit/s services but it's still interesting to look at:
>> >
>> > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=1
>>
>>         Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > >  this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU...
>> >
>> > Thanks, that's an interesting thread. "Hacking" SFP ONUs seems like a popular hobby. Here are some other resources I found:
>> >
>> > https://github.com/zry98/SFP-GPON-ONU
>> > https://github.com/hwti/G-010S-A
>> > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=116364&start=300#p771961
>>
>> Thanks for the links!
>>
>> Regards
>>         Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > > so pulling  a testbed together of some sort would be cool, and for that matter, having a SFP that could go right into a SFP enabled home router rather than a separate unit seems like a good idea, also
>> >
>> > Yes, but ideally I guess you would also need some control of the OLT side. You may want to look into the VOLTHA project run by ONF:
>> >
>> > https://wiki.opennetworking.org/display/COM/VOLTHA
>> >
>> > /Jonas
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:29 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>> > Hi Dave,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Jan 13, 2022, at 16:59, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi Dave,
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU... (I was monitoring that thread for general interest, turns out the intel falcon plattform seems somehow based on an ancient OpenWrt)
>> > >>
>> > >> Regards
>> > >>        Sebastian
>> > >
>> > > It's really remarkable how many places are running an ancient openwrt.
>> > > Starlink's use was not an abomination, but a persistent reality. Given
>> > > how much
>> > > chaos calmer I've found, I sometimes wish we'd somehow started the
>> > > cerowrt project 2 years earlier.
>> >
>> >         Yes and no.
>> >
>> > > Then we'd be done by now.
>> >
>> >         Hopefully, but then I would not have noticed the whole thing and would probably not have participated... ;)
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >         Sebastian
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:38, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> And a gpon onu
>> > >>>
>> > >>> https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:23 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> That is similar to what happens in some GPON-ONT SFPs, some run a full small Linux distribution like OpenWrt inside.... though for ethernet that is unexpected.
>> > >>>> This is also similar to SFP VDSL "modems" which likely run their own embedded OS as well inside the SFP package (at a time there was even a PCI VDSL2 "modem" that was actually running its own embedded system on the PCI board, IIRC, it pretended to the main computer to be an ethernet NIC).
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Regards
>> > >>>>       Sebastian
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> running linux, of course.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> > >>>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>> > >
>> > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>>


-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

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